yes, its like people saying my master Galactus is bad for eating planets. he's just a poor hungry puppy.
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Tan Jee Say – A Poignant Letter To Tony Tan
- Thread starter xingguy
- Start date
yes, its like people saying my master Galactus is bad for eating planets. he's just a poor hungry puppy.
Party-hopping doesn't matter as long as TJS can take votes away from the PAP and help topple the corrupt incumbent party. Unless of course if you're PAP IB.
But TJS was the main reason why we have Tony Tan as the President.
How ludicrous. In a mature democracy, no one would put the 'spoiler' tag on a candidate with 25% of the popular vote, even if he came in 3rd.
If you want to pin the 'spoiler' tag on someone, then pin it on TKL, whose 4.91% would more than have nullified TT's winning margin of 0.35%. Also TKL's losing his deposit was a vindication of the popular view that he shouldn't have stepped into the fray.
That said, TCB as president is not going to make a whit of a difference, his being a staunch PAP man himself. TCB's supporters were deluding themselves if they expected him to be anti-establishment. As I said in another thread:
At the end of the day, Tan Cheng Bock is a dyed-in-the-wool PAP man. Having presidential ambitions is not the same as being anti-establishment; he simply felt that he was the better candidate in regard to the state-sponsored Tony Tan. (Contrary to what the conspiracy theorists say, TCB was not thrown in to dilute opposition votes.)
For the clueless, Kenneth Jeyaratnam actually offered the RP CEC chairmanship to TCB in May this year at a private meeting in TCB's Mt Sinai home, but TCB turned him down. KJ had bet on TCB drawing in more members as well as middle ground voters, but he didn't know that TCB has always been a PAP man through and through and will never stand on an oppo ticket.
I'll retract all I've said here the day TCB joins an oppo party or adopts an anti-establishment stance in his writings and speeches or works with civil society to redress PAP-engendered injustices and abuses.
Tan Jee Say and Tan Kin Lian have established themselves with the oppo camp. TCB just wants to be President.
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It makes one wonder where the true loyalties of some self-declared 'oppo' supporters lie. They vote for the 2nd PAP guy, and blame the true-blue oppo guy – with a quarter of the nation behind him – for being a spoiler.
Sinkies will be Sinkies. No wonder Singapore is still under the yoke of tyranny, 50 years on.
Sinkies will be Sinkies. No wonder Singapore is still under the yoke of tyranny, 50 years on.
The fault of the PE result doesn't lie with TJS, but with the way PAP manipulates system.
The good thing is that, with 3 candidates of 3 different shades taking votes away from Tony, Tony is now a laughing stock president. I would rather Tony win with 35% than TCB or TJS win with 35%. The Jason Chuas, the Sebastian Lims and the Isagarallos will be making cartoons of them every day saying the same things people are saying about Tony now.
Saying all that, TCB might be a PAP guy once, that doesn't make him the "second PAP guy" or unelectable, that's like saying Lim Chin Siong and Lee Siew Choh are also "2nd PAP guys". TJS was PPS to a PAP chief, that kind of proximity is as close as a PAP MP.
Agree.
Technically, being a former PAP guy doesn't mean you can't change your allegiance. Both TKL and TCB were party cadres; but I put TKL firmly in the oppo camp now because of his actions, e.g. speaking at oppo rallies, joining HLP events, writing scathing anti-establishment articles. TCB hasn't done that.
TJS is a different kettle of fish. He is a civil servant, albeit a high-ranking one. PPS is not a political appointment. That doesn't make him a PAP loyalist or equate with PAP ties anymore than all the teachers and doctors who work in the public sector. Is the personal physician of LKY at SGH a PAP man?
Hence my statement: TJS and TKL have proven their oppo credentials; TCB hasn't. Judge by actions, not former party ties.
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TJS is obviously more opposition-type than the other 2 as he has been with 2 opposition parties and speak like an opposition personality.
However TKL is a nut and I don't agree that his bizarre statements amount to anything more than a viable criticism of the PAP and put him closer to oppo than TCB. Speaking at oppo rallies or HL events doesn't put one in the oppo camp and bloggers who spoke there will agree with me.
TCB had criticized the govt and openly supported WP. And even if he is not as oppo as TJS, he certainly wasn't the 2nd closet PAP candidate.
It would be a delusion to think that under a PAP government, the very top ranking civil servants are not PAP-cloaked. A PPS is certainly no doctor of a minister or the owner of a minister's favourite chicken rice stall. They have to work closely together. They are not PAP members simply because the PAP needs to show that the civil service is non-partisan.
But like you say, it doesn't mean you can't change your allegiance and that applies to TJS too.
TJS was the pawn in PAP chess game and he couldn't claim ignorance. Even a layman could see this.
The only one who can take votes away from TT was TCB. Given a contest between TCB and TT, most opposition voters would give TCB their votes giving TCB a clear edge over TT.
Gov plot was to plant TJS and TKL to dilute TCB votes. That not to say they are in cahoot but they were being made used of by PAP.
TCB is standing against TT and that good enough. Certain quarter are singing the theory that TCB was planted by PAP for him to serve as a backup in case TT lose. This is writing political novel at best. Why should PAP dilute the vote of TT by planting TCB? Then there is the accusation that TCB was a PAP man and is still one. There is no such thing as forever foe and friend in politics.
Many PAP MPs, e.g. Lily Neo, have criticized certain PAP policies without their allegiance to the PAP being called into question. Rather, it is what a good PAP MP should do. Likewise an SDP member criticizing SDP policies doesn't make him a PAP sympathizer.
I'm not aware that TJB has openly supported WP. On the other hand, TJS has openly called for regime change.
Disagree. We inherited the civil service system from the Brits, which is meant to be non-partisan and to work with whichever administration is voted into power. Of course a high-ranking civil servant would have to work with a minister(s), but that should not be an indicator of their ideological or party allegiance. Should a Tory-voting perm sec be sacked if Labour comes into power?
I have a perm sec friend who's competent and responsible, yet has a mind of his own when it comes to politics and ideology. And he's certainly no PAP supporter, nor is he involved in any PAP electoral or grassroots activities. To him, being a PS is simply a job that he does well and that pays him well.
If you can show me that TJS was clandestinely doing party or grassroots work (even without being a member) for the PAP while he was PPS, I'd agree with you. Even if he had voted PAP previously, it didn't make him part of the PAP machinery anymore than it made YSL a PAP guy.
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As I say, TCB winning or TT winning is LPPL. Ask yourself honestly, who would the PAP govt want as Prez if TT lost – TCB or TJS? That tells you who's the real anti-establishment threat.
Take off your blinkers. Good enough for what? What good does it do for the oppo cause if #2 choice PAP man beats #1 choice PAP man? Again, has TCB shown that he's now in the oppo camp by his words & actions, constructive criticisms of polices aside?
Apologies to the conspiracy theorists: I don't for a moment think that TJS or TKL or TCB were PAP plants. But it is clear that TCB would be the PAP's #2 choice after TT for the prez. Voting for TT or TCB is simply playing into PAP hands of ensuring a PAP man in the seat. 70% of Sinkies have been hoodwinked.
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Not only the British system, but all systems around the world, the civil service has to be non-partisan.
Do you think Singapore's media is independent, since it is a national arm and being a PAP member is not a prerequisite to becoming an employee? It's the same argument. We are talking not about an actual situation, but an ideal situation that is not due to PAP's long time in power.
As I said, the PAP needs people exactly to stay away from party and grassroots work. They need more than one front. Do you think JY Pillay or Koh Boon Hwee would work under an opposition government simply because they do not join PAP?
Polititics is about perception. The fact that pap can openly endorse a candidate and to lost it is a good slap on their face. No one expects anything from the president as his role is confine by the constitution. Even OTC can't do much. Thus it doesn't matter whether it TJS or tcb wins so long as it not TT.
In politics only No.1 matters. There is no consolation if their so called 'no2 choice' wins.
If your aim is just to make the PAP lose face by making TT lose, yes, then it doesn't matter whether TJS or TCB wins.
But there's more. The president's role is largely ceremonial, and its 'executive' powers limited to a few key areas. But where an anti-establishment prez can make a difference is in public expression of opinion. TKL had said he'd represent 'the views of the people' while TJS promised to be the 'conscience of the people' and speak up on matters like the casinos.
To the extent that the this public expression of opinion by the prez can make a difference to the political debate and hence make an impact the next GE, it is always in our interest to have a true oppo figure in the office. Unless we're not interested in regime change.
That depends on the individual. There would definitely be some civil servants (even doctors like Anus Koh) who'd be involved with the party in one way or another, or have strong ideological ties to the incumbent, but there are definitely independent ones too.
We can't generalize and say that all high-ranking civil servants are PAP converts, or that you must be a PAP sympathizer to climb up the ranks.
Not all high-ranking civil servants, but PPS. And by that I don't mean permanent secretaries, but principal private secretaries (political secretaries as well).
Yes and no. It depends or whether the PPS is a political appointment or civil service appointment.
The political secretary in M'sia is a political appointment and plays an active role in the political and electoral affairs of a minister.
OTOH, in the UK and S'pore, the PPS is a civil service appt. Case in point: Jeremy Heywood was the PPS to Gordon Brown (Labour) and continued – in a promoted position – to serve the Cameron (Tory) administration.
To get maximum political mileage out of this, TJS should have made use of his contacts in the UK to publicise this issue in the newspapers and other media in London a few days before TT's visit.
Do you think this thingey about CY Leung's receiving monies from an Australian company is not known well before hand? His political enemies were holding it in reserve, seeing how he behaves when in office and then choosing the best time and method to expose it.
Using an Australian newspaper to expose it and then local papers simply report that a foreign paper had said so and so. Sue in Australia harder than in HK.
TRE is a mickey mouse forum like Sammyboy
Do you think this thingey about CY Leung's receiving monies from an Australian company is not known well before hand? His political enemies were holding it in reserve, seeing how he behaves when in office and then choosing the best time and method to expose it.
Using an Australian newspaper to expose it and then local papers simply report that a foreign paper had said so and so. Sue in Australia harder than in HK.
TRE is a mickey mouse forum like Sammyboy
Doesn't matter the executive function. Such power is bestow by the parliament overwhelm by pap. They could change it anytime.
Things do not need to be so straight forward.
Expression of public opinion need not be in the form of words and rhetoric but action. In voting out TT, it could also be seen as an expression of public opinion that people do not want a PAP endorsed candidate.
In a MCF it calls for greater urgency for opposition supporters to vote tactically.
You misunderstood. Not expression of public opinion, but the president expressing his anti-establishment views in public, thereby giving the middle finger to the PAP and changing the political landscape. OTC tried to do it, but the ground wasn't ripe. The impact today would be much greater. Only TJS or TKL would dare fulfil this role, not TCB. TCB would be a largely figurehead prez.
A more politicized anti-establishment prez would be a crucial ally to the oppo camp.
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The best way to shaft your finger up their arse is to deny PAP endorsed candidate the victory rather than endorsing the view of the most vocal anti establishment candidate and end up losing the war.
As far as the PE is concern, don't expect it to change the political landscape for president don't have the power. He don't even have the power to grant parole to death row inmates. Whatever power he has is given by PAP control parliament which can be taken away anytime. Having TJS in istana isn't going to change anything but provide more drama. What we hope is to deny TT the victory and thereby let PAP suffer a huge blow to their morale and create perception that PAP is going downhill. Nothing more than this.
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