• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

SDP - Oct 2014 - Dr Chee to speak at IBA conference in Tokyo

Cosmos10

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Dr Chee to speak at IBA conference in Tokyo

Dr Chee Soon Juan has been invited to speak at this year's International Bar Association's (IBA) Rule of Law Symposium in Tokyo on 24 October.

He is one of two speakers in the session on the subject of freedom of expression.

The SDP Secretary-General was also invited to speak at the IBA conference in 2011 in Dubai but could not attend because of his travel ban resulting from a lawsuit brought by Mr Lee Kuan Yew and Mr Goh Chok Tong. He sent a video instead. (Watch video here.)

Dr Chee also attended the Rule of Law Symposium when the conference was held in Singapore in 2007 and spoke from the floor during the Q&A session.

The Government had then tried to prevent the IBA from opening the Symposium to the public which would have stopped him from attending. It failed.

During the session, one of the speakers Mr S Jayakumar, then deputy prime minister and minister for law, defended the PAP's position. Dr Chee rose to rebut the minister, pointing out the numerous abuses of the law including detaining Singapore citizens without trial.

Following the conference, the IBA published a report in 2008 which stated that the rule of law in Singapore “falls far short of international standards. In particular, democratic debate and media comment are extremely restricted and government officials have initiated numerous successful defamation suits against both political and media critics.”

The report also stated that “Singapore cannot continue to claim that civil and political rights must take a back seat to economic rights” but that “t is imperative that Singapore now takes its place as a leader in the region...in human rights, democracy and the rule of law.”

Freedom of expression in Singapore is still significantly restricted. Print and broadcast media are still run by the government. Bloggers and activists continue to be threatened with prosecution and lawsuits. The 2009 Public Order Act, allows the police to stop protests, even if it is by one individual.

The Singapore government recently banned the screening of a film about Singaporean exiles. Several protestors are currently under investigation by the police for alleged illegal assembly at the Speaker's Corner.

Singapore is out of step with international standards on freedom of expression. Unfortunately, this puts an already conformist society even further behind in terms of cultivating an entrepreneurial and innovative culture. This will have a grave impact on the country's economy.

Japan's Chief Justice, Mr Itsuro Terada, will give the Introductory Remarks and Japan's Extraordinary Minister of State and Minister of Consumer Affairs and Gender Equality, Mr Masako Mori, will deliver the Keynote Address.
 

sleaguepunter

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
not that I want to nitpick but go Tokyo for this conference got meaning meh? as if international pressure can make pap go away.

why not make himself more electable in preparation of next GE?
 

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
not that I want to nitpick but go Tokyo for this conference got meaning meh? as if international pressure can make pap go away.

why not make himself more electable in preparation of next GE?

Doing ground work and coming out with policy alternatives to prepare for the GE can go hand-in-hand with alerting the international community to human rights abuses in Singapore. The two are not mutually exclusive activities. Traditionally the latter is handled by civil activists and NGOs, but there's no reason why a politician who's been a victim cannot testify on our behalf. CSJ may have given up on street protests, but he can (and should) attend important conferences to let the world know more about the modus operandi of the Pappy dictatorship.

The PAP govt, like the Israeli govt and many other govts in so-called illiberal 'democratic' states, is very sensitive to 'face' and its international image. They like to look good in the eyes of the Western powers, to curry favour with their corporate and political leaders, to be accepted as a partner in trade and military pacts. That's why the UN resolutions, while symbolic, have had an effect in tempering Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians and bringing the Zionists back to the negotiation table (although without much sincerity).

The trouble is Western bastions of democracy and freedom like the US have long sold out to neo-con and big business interests. They avert their eyes from human rights abuses involving nations with strategic economic and military ties. That said, without a watchful Western press and media, the PAP would have committed far greater rights violations than just suing dissident opposition leaders into bankruptcy.
 
Last edited:

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
Doing ground work and coming out with policy alternatives to prepare for the GE can go hand-in-hand with alerting the international community to human rights abuses in Singapore. The two are not mutually exclusive activities. Traditionally the latter is handled by civil activists and NGOs, but there's no reason why a politician who's been a victim cannot testify on our behalf. CSJ may have given up on street protests, but he can (and should) attend important conferences to let the world know more about the modus operandi of the Pappy dictatorship.

The PAP govt, like the Israeli govt and many other govts in so-called illiberal 'democratic' states, is very sensitive to 'face' and its international image. They like to look good in the eyes of the Western powers, to curry favour with their corporate and political leaders, to be accepted as a partner in trade and military pacts. That's why the UN resolutions, while symbolic, have had an effect in tempering Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians and bringing the Zionists back to the negotiation table (although without much sincerity).

The trouble is Western bastions of democracy and freedom like the US have long sold out to neo-con and big business interests. They avert their eyes from human rights abuses involving nations with strategic economic and military ties. That said, without a watchful Western press and media, the PAP would have committed far greater rights violations than just suing dissident opposition leaders into bankruptcy.

U must see the whole issue in the proper context. Palestinian got billion of muslim spreading in every corner of the world ready to do anything including boycott, terrorism, vote against political parties for supporting Israel. as a result, it doesn't make sense to offend billion just for the sake of a few millions jews. On the other hand what does CSJ has?

Don't be mistaken into thinking Western countries really stand for democracy and human right. If these are the values they really stand for, then there is no reason for the west to support Ukraine opposition who overthrew a democratic elected government just because that gov wasn't in their camp. Just go and google how many dictators and military rulers who once allied US. Fact is west don't care about democracy but self interests.

President Franklin Roosevelt once made comment about the dictator of Nicaragua Somoza ‘Somoza may be a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch.’ This best expressed the American attitude when it comes to foreign relation. And yes, PAP is America's 'son of a bitch'.

Not that I don't agree with CSJ arguments but I think he should just stop wasting his money and energy attending all this useless conference. Kopitiam ah peks and aunties don't give a hoot about who CSJ manages to rub shoulder with. Educated fence sitters are most pissed with his repeated call for foreign powers to intervene. In the end, CSJ is just only pleasing the diehards and no one else.
 
Last edited:

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Don't be mistaken into thinking Western countries really stand for democracy and human right. If these are the values they really stand for, then there is no reason for the west to support Ukraine opposition who overthrew a democratic elected government just because that gov wasn't in their camp. Just go and google how many dictators and military rulers who once allied US. Fact is west don't care about democracy but self interests.

Fair statement. That said, there are Western voices of conscience, not in the governments generally, but in the advocacy groups, NGOs, certain segments of the liberal media, which do affect the international image of the PAP govt.

President Franklin Roosevelt once made comment about the dictator of Nicaragua Somoza ‘Somoza may be a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch.’ This best expressed the American attitude when it comes to foreign relation. And yes, PAP is America's 'son of a bitch'.

Agree. That's why I mention Western hypocrisy in many of my posts here, which some blind buggers here take to mean that I'm PAP IB because I 'don't support democracy'.

Not that I don't agree with CSJ arguments but I think he should just stop wasting his money and energy attending all this useless conference. Kopitiam ah peks and aunties don't give a hoot about who CSJ manages to rub shoulder with. Educated fence sitters are most pissed with his repeated call for foreign powers to intervene. In the end, CSJ is just only pleasing the diehards and no one else.

Error #1. CSJ is usually invited to speak at these conferences. Board and lodging provided. Usually he has to foot the air ticket. But it's not 'a waste of time and energy' if the world is made aware of the abuses in Singapore, the way we are aware of what goes on in Ukraine or Palestine or Somalia.

Error #2. CSJ is not 'asking for foreign powers to intervene'. How can it be so when he and the SDP are fully committed to winning power by the parliamentary route? He's long ditched the notion of Ghandian non-violent civil disobedience to evoke political change. He's also a firm believer that change can only come from within, through S'poreans. Not through (usually) violent foreign intervention à la Iraq.

He's merely bringing human rights and governance abuses to the attention of the international media (not foreign govts) so that by reporting on these abuses they put pressure on PAP by exposing the false image of the prosperous utopian nation that PAP has presented to the world. The pressure is more psychological than physical (military/economic), and it stops the PAP from resorting to extreme abuse. (Only North Korea is immune to such pressure.)

Error #3. CSJ's conference speeches are not aimed at 'kopitiam ah peks and aunties'. The purpose is not to win votes, but to increase global awareness of a particular nation's human rights violations. Without such global awareness, Indignados would not have led to Occupy Wall St to Occupy Mongkok. Each of these movements is indigenously started, but globally inspired.

Kopitiam ah peks and aunties will have to be won over by house-to-house visits, handshaking, block parties, distribution of brochures and party newsletters, all of which the SDP is currently doing regularly.
 

Wanderer

Alfrescian
Loyal
出國一下下,讓國外人士了解新加坡的懶叫狀況,在國外曝一下光,很好啊。在新加坡太久,有時候會造成目光短淺,鬱悶,等等。出國透透氣,是好事。
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
He's merely bringing human rights and governance abuses to the attention of the international media (not foreign govts) so that by reporting on these abuses they put pressure on PAP by exposing the false image of the prosperous utopian nation that PAP has presented to the world. The pressure is more psychological than physical (military/economic), and it stops the PAP from resorting to extreme abuse. (Only North Korea is immune to such pressure.)

Things doesn't work like this. Medias will only report on things that sell..currently there are many events that is competing to grab the world's attention, Ebola, Ukriane, ISIS, Israel-Palestine conflict, HK protests etc. What is so newsworthy of PAP ISA from an International perspective? That why CSJ is just wasting his time fighting for international limelight instead of focusing to win votes locally
 

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
That why CSJ is just wasting his time fighting for international limelight instead of focusing to win votes locally

That's only valid if CSJ is spending so much time abroad that he's neglecting local constituents, which is not the case. If you compared the number of speeches he'd given at overseas conferences with the time he'd spent on writing for his website, coming out with policy paper after paper since GE2011, organizing strategy meetings, doing weekly/fortnightly walkabouts, you'd see that his focus had been and still is on consolidating voter support for GE2015/6.

As I said, there's nothing wrong with combining local politics with playing a niche advocacy role in his unique position as one of the few politicians to have been politically persecuted by the ruling power in the past 3 decades, alongside JBJ, TLH and FS because they were genuine threats. CSJ speaks as a direct victim, not as an academic discussing political abuse, so his words carry unique weight & authority.

As long as his occasional overseas appearances don't eat into the time spent on his and the SDP's local constituency work, I don't see why the two activities can't co-exist and further the cause of making Singapore a less repressive place.
 
Last edited:

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
出國一下下,讓國外人士了解新加坡的懶叫狀況,在國外曝一下光,很好啊。在新加坡太久,有時候會造成目光短淺,鬱悶,等等。出國透透氣,是好事。

出國增廣見聞不在話下,最終目的還是讓國際人士了解腐敗黨的獨裁制度,讓他人知道屢屢侵犯人權的情形仍存在。至於緩解鬱悶,徐順權以反對黨秘書長和前政治迫害受害者身份所負擔的重任和精神包袱,不是局外人所能體會到,恐怕他這輩子也擺脫不了。
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
That's only valid if CSJ is spending so much time abroad that he's neglecting local constituents, which is not the case. If you compared the number of speeches he'd given at overseas conferences with the time he'd spent on writing for his website, coming out with policy paper after paper since GE2011, organizing strategy meetings, doing weekly/fortnightly walkabouts, you'd see that his focus had been and still is on consolidating voter support for GE2015/6.

As I said, there's nothing wrong with combining local politics with playing a niche advocacy role in his unique position as one of the few politicians to have been politically persecuted by the ruling power in the past 3 decades, alongside JBJ, TLH and FS because they were genuine threats. CSJ speaks as a direct victim, not as an academic discussing political abuse, so his words carry unique weight & authority.

As long as his occasional overseas appearances don't eat into the time spent on his and the SDP's local constituency work, I don't see why the two activities can't co-exist and further the cause of making Singapore a less repressive place.

The thing here is his overseas trip serves no purpose. If this is the case, might as well channel his time towards addressing his targeted group of voters.
 

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
The thing here is his overseas trip serves no purpose. If this is the case, might as well channel his time towards addressing his targeted group of voters.

Human rights advocacy always serves an important purpose in mature democracies, though it may have nothing to do with winning votes. (More purpose than durian trips to JB, at any rate.) Sinkies think that socio-political progress is only about winning votes, and dismiss the importance of civil society. If that were the case, women and blacks would still not be able to vote in the US today. And Mandela would have died in prison.

Besides, do you have any evidence that his occasional invitation to speak at overseas conferences has caused him to neglect his target constituents?
 
Last edited:

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
Human rights advocacy always serves an important purpose in mature democracies, though it may have nothing to do with winning votes. (More purpose than durian trips to JB, at any rate.) Sinkies think that socio-political progress is only about winning votes, and dismiss the importance of civil society. If that were the case, women and blacks would still not be able to vote in the US today. And Mandela would have died in prison.

Besides, do you have any evidence that his occasional invitation to speak at overseas conferences has caused him to neglect his target constituents?

His party results are the best evidence and it indicate he needs to spend more effort on winning votes instead on some other unproductive purpose. . If not, why should we waste our votes on someone who isn't interested in winning?

At the very least durian trips helps to win votes and then useless talks.
 

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
His party results are the best evidence and it indicate he needs to spend more effort on winning votes instead on some other unproductive purpose. . If not, why should we waste our votes on someone who isn't interested in winning?

You still haven't shown how his occasional overseas talks have deprived him of time spent on ground work here to win votes. You still haven't shown that advocating human rights is equivalent to 'isn't interested in winning'. You still haven't shown that civil society causes are 'unproductive'. Assumptions, assumptions.

That said, CSJ is a full-time sec-gen. He spends more time thinking politics, writing politics, doing politics, than most other politicians and even MPs in both the PAP and oppo camps. And you think that attending a one-day conference 2 or 3 times a year is going to affect SDP's electoral work here?

There are many oppo politicians who are holding full-time jobs while juggling their party commitments with work commitments. Are you going to say that these people are not 'interested in winning' because they spend so much time earning a living?

Your prejudice is staggering. No wonder there's no hope for Sinkieland. Sheesh.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
You still haven't shown how his occasional overseas talks have deprived him of time spent on ground work here to win votes. You still haven't shown that advocating human rights is equivalent to 'isn't interested in winning'. You still haven't shown that civil society causes are 'unproductive'. Assumptions, assumptions.

That said, CSJ is a full-time sec-gen. He spends more time thinking politics, writing politics, doing politics, than most other politicians and even MPs in both the PAP and oppo camps. And you think that attending a one-day conference 2 or 3 times a year is going to affect SDP's electoral work here?

There are many oppo politicians who are holding full-time jobs while juggling their party commitments with work commitments. Are you going to say that these people are not 'interested in winning' because they spend so much time earning a living?

Your prejudice is staggering. No wonder there's no hope for Sinkieland. Sheesh.

What more you want me to prove?

We are talking about a party that had been advocating those values you listed and take a good hard look at their results. Show me one single GRC or SMC that they manage to score above 40% since CSJ took over?

I don't think it in anyone's interests to see any opposition performs badly but the point is it might be better for CSJ to focus more time on improving their pathetic scoreline. With a sub 40% score, surely there are more rooms for him to work on then to waste time on attending matters that doesn't help. Leave those human rights issue to the NGOs.
If this is the way he wants it, why don't he just quite and be a full time activist?
 

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Leave those human rights issue to the NGOs.
If this is the way he wants it, why don't he just quite and be a full time activist?

If you noticed, CSJ has long left his disobedience days to concentrate on the parliamentary route, and he has kept true to his word. SDP was the most improved party in 2011, and who's to say they can't improve significantly on the 39+% score in 2016? They're trying hard, not just CSJ, but the entire team.

When CSJ gives a speech today, it's not for civil disobedience but to use his position as a past political rights victim to highlight abuses in the system. Teoh Soh Lung does the same. Is that wrong? Are you saying that an opposition politician can never ever give speeches or lectures except to his own constituency voters? A political science academic like James Gomez cannot talk about political governance at a forum? Or Sylvia Lim cannot give a talk at a legal forum?

What rubbish.

... but the point is it might be better for CSJ to focus more time on improving their pathetic scoreline.
How do you know he's not already focussing more time? And how do 2 or 3 speeches a year cause him to neglect his time given to voters?
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
If you noticed, CSJ has long left his disobedience days to concentrate on the parliamentary route, and he has kept true to his word. SDP was the most improved party in 2011, and who's to say they can't improve significantly on the 39+% score in 2016? They're trying hard, not just CSJ, but the entire team.

When CSJ gives a speech today, it's not for civil disobedience but to use his position as a past political rights victim to highlight abuses in the system. Teoh Soh Lung does the same. Is that wrong? Are you saying that an opposition politician can never ever give speeches or lectures except to his own constituency voters? A political science academic like James Gomez cannot talk about political governance at a forum? Or Sylvia Lim cannot give a talk at a legal forum?

What rubbish.


How do you know he's not already focussing more time? And how do 2 or 3 speeches a year cause him to neglect his time given to voters?

The so called most improve party was actually benchmark from a very low baseline. A rather hollow claim.

No one is arguing anything about civil disobedience but It about what the party's piriorities are.

Those time wasted on overseas speeches could jolly well be spent on winning more votes. It about opportunity cost.
 
Last edited:

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
No one is arguing anything about civil disobedience but It about what the party's piriorities are.

That's where you're wrong. Party's priorities are to win the elections. CSJ does not represent the party position when he speaks at these symposiums; he speaks as an individual human rights advocate.

BTW, the upcoming IBA Symposium in Tokyo will have Minister Masako Mori (Consumer Affairs/Gender Equality) deliver the keynote address. It is not just a conference for NGOs or activists.

The last time IBA was held here in 2007, Jayakumar (then-law minister) was one of the speakers. Was it an opportunity cost for the PAP to send a minister to speak when he should be spending time winning votes?
 

tanwahp

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Those time wasted on overseas speeches could jolly well be spent on winning more votes. It about opportunity cost.

Seems alright to me. At least he's doing something with the time not spent on walking the ground in another area of politics.

Compared to those that:

- Want to stay as 4-member or 5-member parties

- Live a more balanced life with more time in their hands than most Singaporeans and whose time not in politics is used to "jiak hong"

- But want to win our votes and ask better-chance parties to give way, thereby trapping their unfortunate constituents with the PAP for eternity

- Despite being small and already spending so little time in politics, half of this commitment and energy is spent on attacking other opposition parties
 
Last edited:

Wanderer

Alfrescian
Loyal
Seems alright to me. At least he's doing something with the time not spent on walking the ground in another area of politics.

Compared to those that:

- Want to stay as 4-member or 5-member parties

- Live a more balanced life with more time in their hands than most Singaporeans and whose time not in politics is used to "jiak hong"

- But want to win our votes and ask better-chance parties to give way, thereby trapping their unfortunate constituents with the PAP for eternity

- Despite being small and already spending so little time in politics, half of this commitment and energy is spent on attacking other opposition parties

Whatever it is, its better than Low and Sylvia slient most of the time, only dare to speak up during parliment session. Whats wrong for SDP or the liberals criticizng the PAP wannabe Opposition such as WP?? The WP are the conservative/ right wing camp remember? SDP they are the liberal. So its only natural for the liberal to take potshot on the conservative/ right wing.
 
Last edited:
Top