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Proposed stops for KL-S'pore high-speed rail - Nusajaya in Johor

snowbird

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Nearest small scale comparison is Kajang-Cheras-KL-PJ-Subang Jaya-Shah Alam-Kelang linear city development and now became overall Klang Valley. The roads and rails were built to link them. Latest is MRTs are being built as well. Some 20 years ago, these towns were developed entirely on their own. But as land run scarce, it began to spread out and thus joining the dotted lines.

I suppose the rationale of HSR is also the same albeit on a grand scale.

No, I cannot agree with you to compare the development of the KL city mass rail network as the smaller scale version to the HSR as they both serve purpose and different types of commuters.
I can only say that the current rail network development is just like any big cities, to link all the smaller townships to the main city centre or CDB to facilitate workers going to work, reduce cars on the road by providing easier travelling on public transport with the city.
Just like our MRT system, the system links large housing estate like Tampines, Bedok, Woodlands, Jurong, etc to the CDB.
The current rail network development in KL is to bring all the suburbs and township further away, all within the Klang Valley just a train ride to KL central.
Travelling from places like Klang, Batu Caves, Kajang, Puchong, etc to KL Central can usually take more than an hour even by driving now cut short by more than half and more convenient.
That is the natural development and progression on transportation modes in major cities all over the world as its population grows and city gets more spread out.
The HSR is working on an entirely different agenda and purpose.
 

Funniman

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No, I cannot agree with you to compare the development of the KL city mass rail network as the smaller scale version to the HSR as they both serve purpose and different types of commuters.
I can only say that the current rail network development is just like any big cities, to link all the smaller townships to the main city centre or CDB to facilitate workers going to work, reduce cars on the road by providing easier travelling on public transport with the city.
Just like our MRT system, the system links large housing estate like Tampines, Bedok, Woodlands, Jurong, etc to the CDB.
The current rail network development in KL is to bring all the suburbs and township further away, all within the Klang Valley just a train ride to KL central.
Travelling from places like Klang, Batu Caves, Kajang, Puchong, etc to KL Central can usually take more than an hour even by driving now cut short by more than half and more convenient.
That is the natural development and progression on transportation modes in major cities all over the world as its population grows and city gets more spread out.
The HSR is working on an entirely different agenda and purpose.

What agenda do you think both governments are having?
 

snowbird

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What agenda do you think both governments are having?

Actually both govt are still not sure if the HSR is sustainable.
The closest case study should be the Taiwan HSR in terms of length of line, numbers of stations and population distribution (like Taipei being SG and Kaoshiong being KL?).
But the Taiwan HSR had been running at massive losses for 5 years since operation.
Are both govt able to withstand such a financial burden for years?
Also, being operated by 2 countries, how are they going to fairly distribute profit and loss and can they concur easily on simple issues like restructuring to cut operating cost, etc.?
The agenda is simple - to score political points and to uplift the economical mood, building the system within the next 5 years or 25 years is not the issue now.
Noticed the buzz and exitement generated when the news was announced 2 years ago?
Of cause, any mega project is good for employment and the economy.
 
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freekazoid

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Last Saturday sg news straight times show HSR development in China and Japan in map and compare to KL-SG HRS. By comparison...the 350km is micro tiny compare to china and japan....they easily have 20x to 50x bigger network. That said...MY-SG HSR is not financial/technological big deal....every country or region should look into this transport mode now...it is as commercialize as subway sandwich.

Operating model between country too complex....China ready take outsource model
Financing tight for capital infra....China ready to lend 100%...zero down require...maybe $1 for formality
Too scare unsustainable....China ready to give 10yrs interest free loan....ready credit facilities for operation cash advance 24mths interest free...
Still scare? China undertake whole project privately....right to operating for next 25yrs....zero risk for MY/SG

Next economic, financing, operation, technology problem? Tell to CHina....
 
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Vohkster

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Generous Asset
Let's all be adults. China ain't a fool and there's no way they want to build a HSR n lend u money to build n help u run it without anything substantial in return. The current focus is the spratlys n they are doing all this to garner support n gently remind their debtors to stay away from their claims to the islands. N also to rally them to support China's cause. Plus a vote for them is a vote against USA. It's a power struggle to be the next super power of the world.
 

freekazoid

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"Let's be adult" - you dont understand does not mean it's kindergarden level opinion... :smile:
There no data at yours or my level to suggest it's not sustainable. There is though strong intend made by both governments presently...whom had couple years of recent studies made. To suggest and invalidate the data they possessed which in turn the intend to undertake this project...because one think his/her reality is the final truth...is self-deception...

The second part of your argument...i dont see the relevancy...
What is china cause? Whose vote China intend to garner against USA? What does territorial claim or power show off has to do with HSR? How does one country be it gov or private unable to focus on more than one thing?
 

Vohkster

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Generous Asset
Honestly you have in the same breadth, managed to say nothing at all. :p

You mentioned operating model is too complex, let China take care. You mentioned investment n operating costs, China will take care. You say China can run the system for 25 years there is no risk to my or sg. Now who in the right mind would do such charity? Esp so for big brother China?

You may be right to say I have no data to back up my wildest fantasy that China is aiming to be the regions Tai Kor. Look at how aggressive they have been at the spratlys islands. Look at how they have signed oil for RMB agreement with Russia. Even now the viets n Philippines are begging the U.S. to return to set up bases in their countries when not too long ago their govts passed laws to chase the buggers off their shores. The US had long maintained supremacy by controlling political , financial and military superiority in this region. Our Ah Tiong brothers are merely emulating their tried and tested formulas. :p
 

Relaxman

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"Let's be adult" - you dont understand does not mean it's kindergarden level opinion... :smile:
There no data at yours or my level to suggest it's not sustainable. There is though strong intend made by both governments presently...whom had couple years of recent studies made. To suggest and invalidate the data they possessed which in turn the intend to undertake this project...because one think his/her reality is the final truth...is self-deception...

The second part of your argument...i dont see the relevancy...
What is china cause? Whose vote China intend to garner against USA? What does territorial claim or power show off has to do with HSR? How does one country be it gov or private unable to focus on more than one thing?

Lol....actually, this vohkster aka huatgugu never able to talk nicely or rationally in this forum all the while. This kid talk nonsense all the time.
 

Vohkster

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Eh idiot, you still haven't answer the question posed to you. Siam ah? Sore loser la you! I'm waiting for you to shed off this clone and move to highflyer or zigzag or AsusGuy? You can use back the condemned cslong too! Just pick one! Hahaha cheers :smile:


Well I do know the sure fire way to retire this relaxman nick for good is to zap him mercilessly till he cannot retort with dignity. It's obvious to everyone here he is trying to stir trouble here with this nick. Meanwhile lets just seat back and watch this girl antagonize more people here when he slags other developers.
 

Rocka

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Loyal
China and Thailand are building the Kra Canal, which will allow shipments to bypass many ports in Malaysia and Singapore. I think it makes sense for Singapore and Malaysia to join up the capitals via fast rail for higher chance of economic survival.
In today Sin Chew daily, China authority strongly denied the above rumour. No such plan.
 

freekazoid

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"You mentioned operating model is too complex, let China take care."
- yes...outsource is very common model...dont have core competency...not inline with main business nature...need 3rd neutral party in between the politic...or whatever reason...outsource...china is one outsource partner...many other alternate choice if china too busy with spratlys.

"You mentioned investment n operating costs, China will take care."
- yes...financial loan, bond, share...unless financing approach these days....china can be the creditor....or many more out there...if china cant comprehend to handle one more matter than just spratlys.

"You say China can run the system for 25 years there is no risk to my or sg."
- yes...concession model or hybrid of that model...very common as well...china is potential but maybe not of national interest (or china too focus on spratlys until no eyesight for business deal)...cos a monopoly in one of the kind transport mode and route of the day....plenty locals entrepreneurship enterprise would spot the long term investment...

"Now who in the right mind would do such charity? Esp so for big brother China?"
- again what makes you think it's charity?


"You may be right to say I have no data to back up my wildest fantasy that China is aiming to be the regions Tai Kor. Look at how aggressive they have been at the spratlys islands. Look at how they have signed oil for RMB agreement with Russia. Even now the viets n Philippines are begging the U.S. to return to set up bases in their countries when not too long ago their govts passed laws to chase the buggers off their shores. The US had long maintained supremacy by controlling political , financial and military superiority in this region. Our Ah Tiong brothers are merely emulating their tried and tested formulas."
- by me mentioned China you have completely missed the points of business solution model practice everyday by institutions and enterprise everywhere. This whole block statement there is what uncle talk at kopitiam....deviate, anti constructive, pointless to the topic, full intend to push whatever direction just to make path ahead difficult and above all negativity without cause....nothing get done with negative ppl....
 
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Relaxman

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"You mentioned operating model is too complex, let China take care."
- yes...outsource is very common model...dont have core competency...not inline with main business nature...need 3rd neutral party in between the politic...or whatever reason...outsource...china is one outsource partner...many other alternate choice if china too busy with spratlys.

"You mentioned investment n operating costs, China will take care."
- yes...financial loan, bond, share...unless financing approach these days....china can be the creditor....or many more out there...if china cant comprehend to handle one more matter than just spratlys.

"You say China can run the system for 25 years there is no risk to my or sg."
- yes...concession model or hybrid of that model...very common as well...china is potential but maybe not of national interest (or china too focus on spratlys until no eyesight for business deal)...cos a monopoly in one of the kind transport mode and route of the day....plenty locals entrepreneurship enterprise would spot the long term investment...

"Now who in the right mind would do such charity? Esp so for big brother China?"
- again what makes you think it's charity?


"You may be right to say I have no data to back up my wildest fantasy that China is aiming to be the regions Tai Kor. Look at how aggressive they have been at the spratlys islands. Look at how they have signed oil for RMB agreement with Russia. Even now the viets n Philippines are begging the U.S. to return to set up bases in their countries when not too long ago their govts passed laws to chase the buggers off their shores. The US had long maintained supremacy by controlling political , financial and military superiority in this region. Our Ah Tiong brothers are merely emulating their tried and tested formulas."
- by me mentioned China you have completely missed the points of business solution model practice everyday by institutions and enterprise everywhere. This whole block statement there is what uncle talk at kopitiam....deviate, anti constructive, pointless to the topic, full intend to push whatever direction just to make path ahead difficult and above all negativity without cause....nothing get done with negative ppl....

Hats off to you! Is a good lesson to our vokhster aka huatgugu. By now, you should know that he is infamous for talking kok in this forum. Just be careful, later he will say you are my clone (oops, is cslong clone). LOL....
 

FHBH12

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Loyal
In today Sin Chew daily, China authority strongly denied the above rumour. No such plan.

Not by government but via proxy.
iims.org.uk/kra-canal-project/ China is very rich and power hungry now. Just like our HSR, it is a matter of when.
 

snowbird

Alfrescian
Loyal
"You mentioned operating model is too complex, let China take care."
- yes...outsource is very common model...dont have core competency...not inline with main business nature...need 3rd neutral party in between the politic...or whatever reason...outsource...china is one outsource partner...many other alternate choice if china too busy with spratlys.

"You mentioned investment n operating costs, China will take care."
- yes...financial loan, bond, share...unless financing approach these days....china can be the creditor....or many more out there...if china cant comprehend to handle one more matter than just spratlys.

"You say China can run the system for 25 years there is no risk to my or sg."
- yes...concession model or hybrid of that model...very common as well...china is potential but maybe not of national interest (or china too focus on spratlys until no eyesight for business deal)...cos a monopoly in one of the kind transport mode and route of the day....plenty locals entrepreneurship enterprise would spot the long term investment...

"Now who in the right mind would do such charity? Esp so for big brother China?"
- again what makes you think it's charity?


"You may be right to say I have no data to back up my wildest fantasy that China is aiming to be the regions Tai Kor. Look at how aggressive they have been at the spratlys islands. Look at how they have signed oil for RMB agreement with Russia. Even now the viets n Philippines are begging the U.S. to return to set up bases in their countries when not too long ago their govts passed laws to chase the buggers off their shores. The US had long maintained supremacy by controlling political , financial and military superiority in this region. Our Ah Tiong brothers are merely emulating their tried and tested formulas."
- by me mentioned China you have completely missed the points of business solution model practice everyday by institutions and enterprise everywhere. This whole block statement there is what uncle talk at kopitiam....deviate, anti constructive, pointless to the topic, full intend to push whatever direction just to make path ahead difficult and above all negativity without cause....nothing get done with negative ppl....

Its already 2 years since the first joint announcement and millions$$ spent on feasibility studies, I'm very sure both since already have some idea on the sustainability of the HSR.
I am also quite certain the prelim results obtained were quite negative.
The link between SG and KL is already served by so many mode of transport - by air, rail, buses, road(driving & motorbike) and many options for each type.
Having the HSR is indeed a luxury and a new option to travel while without it makes little difference.

The HSR was projected as a national pride by both sides and it will be the last thing that both side wanted the system be operated on a concession model!
This is especially so for MY when employment of certain group of people is top priority, more so that the system will be employing tens of thousands from top executives to train drivers.
However, when 2 nations jointly runs the system, there will be many issues need to be sorted out and agreed upon and its no easy task especially when the HSR is about 90% in MY and 10% in SG.
China and also Japan had shown keen interest to develop and build the system for simple reason - provide vast employment opportunity in their home country and of cos also chance to show off their advance technologies overseas.
China just started the AIIB to provide loans to countries to improve their infrastructure and this HSR just came in timely.

Financing to build the HSR is only an one off investment, so what if both need to spend billions$$ after all, it can be amotised over the years or decades.
Its the operation and maintence cost that is worrying.
Once the projected ridership can't materialize or worse, way below projection, the books will be in the red all the way, month after month, years after years.
The Taiwan HSR had this experience - massive losses for years!
Both side can introduce tyrannical policies to discourage people from using other mode of transport and use the HSR like introducing higher toll hikes, reducing buses, levies, special taxes, etc.
Hence both sides have to be very cautious, spending money to build is not so much a problem but the running of the system could be a long term problem that cannot be stop unilaterally.
 

AHGS14

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From wikipedia.

Taiwan High Speed Rail (abbreviated THSR or HSR) is a high-speed rail line that runs approximately 345 km (214 mi) (actual length in operation is 339 km (211 mi)) along the west coast of Taiwan, from the national capital Taipei to the southern city of Kaohsiung. With construction managed by a private company, Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation (THSRC), which also operates the line, the total cost of the project was US$18 billion. At the time it was built in 2007, this was one of the world's largest privately funded rail construction schemes. The system is based primarily on Japan's Shinkansen technology.

Today's Straits Times reported that Thailand may approve a Japan technology HSR of 670 km, from Bangkok to Chiangmai. Planning to start work in 2Q 2016, the project is estimated to cost USD 12 billion. If they pull it off, the cost is significantly less than the Taiwan HSR without even taking into considerations of length of network, the weaker USD compared to 2007 and NPV.

It would appear that the project cost is difficult to estimate and may depend on the "ability to pay", ala broadcast right for World Cup, EPL, etc.
 

Funniman

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Today's Straits Times reported that Thailand may approve a Japan technology HSR of 670 km, from Bangkok to Chiangmai. Planning to start work in 2Q 2016, the project is estimated to cost USD 12 billion. If they pull it off, the cost is significantly less than the Taiwan HSR without even taking into considerations of length of network, the weaker USD compared to 2007 and NPV.

It would appear that the project cost is difficult to estimate and may depend on the "ability to pay", ala broadcast right for World Cup, EPL, etc.

I witnessed one of the construction site at Chiayi when Taiwan HSR was first built. Massive support structures all over. I can imagine there would be serious cost over runs if it is built on difficult terrain. Much of the cost depends on the rail track. Every country has different topography.
 

RedsYNWA

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I witnessed one of the construction site at Chiayi when Taiwan HSR was first built. Massive support structures all over. I can imagine there would be serious cost over runs if it is built on difficult terrain. Much of the cost depends on the rail track. Every country has different topography.

Seems pretty straight forward for MY, if it's based on the alignment for NS Highway though.
 

snowbird

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I'm still quite puzzled as why both side wanted to spend so much money and resources to build a brand rail system when there is another very much cheaper alternative.
The current railway line runs all the way from Woodlands (before it was from Panjong Pagar) to Butterworth. From here, you can change train and go onwards to Bangkok and the rest of Thailand.
Why don't they consider to upgrade the trains into Fast Trains like what they did in the UK?
The Fast Train may not be as fast as the HSR but at about 200km/hr you can still reach KL from SG in less than 2 hrs.
The London / Manchester Intercity Express takes only about 2 hours and the distance is almost similar.
If they were to just upgrade the current KTM, then perhaps the Tg Pagar Station could be revived to once again be the city terminus for the train service and sprucing up the stations and upgrading the train engines and coaches are definately very much cheaper and lower the risk of developing a white elephant.
One of the main reason for shifting the train station to Woodlands was to stop smuggling, human and goods, while the train was moving from JB to Tg Pagar by jumping train or throwing off the moving slow train.
With the high speed train and locked windows, this may not be possible.
This way, no need to acquire new land, no need to build new rail line and stations, almost everything is already there.
If MY really wanted to service certain towns like Ayer Keroh or Muar which is not in the current network, they can easily build an extension to link.
 

Funniman

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I'm still quite puzzled as why both side wanted to spend so much money and resources to build a brand rail system when there is another very much cheaper alternative.
The current railway line runs all the way from Woodlands (before it was from Panjong Pagar) to Butterworth. From here, you can change train and go onwards to Bangkok and the rest of Thailand.
Why don't they consider to upgrade the trains into Fast Trains like what they did in the UK?
The Fast Train may not be as fast as the HSR but at about 200km/hr you can still reach KL from SG in less than 2 hrs.
The London / Manchester Intercity Express takes only about 2 hours and the distance is almost similar.
If they were to just upgrade the current KTM, then perhaps the Tg Pagar Station could be revived to once again be the city terminus for the train service and sprucing up the stations and upgrading the train engines and coaches are definately very much cheaper and lower the risk of developing a white elephant.
One of the main reason for shifting the train station to Woodlands was to stop smuggling, human and goods, while the train was moving from JB to Tg Pagar by jumping train or throwing off the moving slow train.
With the high speed train and locked windows, this may not be possible.
This way, no need to acquire new land, no need to build new rail line and stations, almost everything is already there.
If MY really wanted to service certain towns like Ayer Keroh or Muar which is not in the current network, they can easily build an extension to link.

KTM since British colonial times has been running services on meter-gauge tracks. Meter gauge tracks were basically designed at least during those days for industrial use and in Malaysia’s case — to transport tin.

However we failed to modernize and completely neglected our rail services in favour of road transport and continued using these meter gauges even for our passenger services.

In most parts of the world passenger services started running on standard or broad gauge.

To achieve decent transit times between KL and Penang etc, double tracking on a meter gauge will be slow and clearly will not be competitive. Obviously this is a half measure as it seems the project is trying to avoid investing in rolling stock as would be the case if standard or broad gauge are adopted instead.

Simply put you cannot run a train fast if your tracks are not broad enough for stability at high speeds. For you to achieve speed and stability you need standard or broad gauge.
 
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