Conflating the issue - CPF vs Roy's error

da dick · Jun 16, 2014

virus said:
boss sam is like tin tin. not your average peasant, tin tin will tell you she ordinary citizen who's dad only own a coffee shop.

actually i believe in boss sam.

back in the 80s, it was very easy to make money off personal/small businesses and maybe even stock market(before it eventually crash anyway).

right now? no fucking way, GLCs have a monopoly on every major industry in sinkie(even powerful MNCs hate them!), and stock markets are a 1000X more inflated and risky than they were bfore late-80's crash. don't even need to talk about the current housing bubble. who is not insane to think a HDB PUBLIC flat should be worth up to over a million dollars?

scroobal · Jun 16, 2014

The court case is about the damages as well as if Roy had aggravated the situation and if he did, then the assessment for aggravated damages.

The defamation suit went away when Roy posted his apology according to the terms that was asked for.

It does not matter if everyman believes that LHL misappropriated the money. They must show he did it. It is easier to apologise and pay damages. The fact that he placed his wife in Temasek shows where his ethics lies. It's just that you cannot touch him.

chonburifc said:
To TS, court also haven't decide, why u say Roy defame chow pinky? Maybe chow pinky really makan duit leh? you mean you so sure pinky never makan duit? Court also must prove pinky never makan duit. Dio boh? Now, this is call justice.

ChaoPappyPoodle · Jun 16, 2014

scroobal said:
The court case is about the damages as well as if Roy had aggravated the situation and if he did, then the assessment for aggravated damages.

The defamation suit went away when Roy posted his apology according to the terms that was asked for.

It does not matter if everyman believes that LHL misappropriated the money. They must show he did it. It is easier to apologise and pay damages. The fact that he placed his wife in Temasek shows where his ethics lies. It's just that you cannot touch him.

He can not only be touched but caressed aggressively. We are talking about a mere mortal that told the entire world that he will BUY support and FIX adversaries. The same man that together with his father and wife have in all likelihood earned hundreds of millions of dollars thus far due to the CPF being used as it has been used by the government, laundered with GIC and Temasek. CPF money has been laundered because no one knows how there is or where it is and every decent attempt at asking has been faced with obscure answers and worse yet, every attempt at explaining has brought forth even more questions than the original, simple question.

It should be noted that money laundering in some jurisdictions include obfuscation of the sources of money.

scroobal · Jun 16, 2014

It's a flawed argument.

The CPF funds is a ring fenced pool of funds which belongs to its members. It central purpose is to provide for its members when they retire.

All such ring fenced provident and pension funds around the world do not put their money in bank fixed deposit and wait. The funds are managed professionally in-house or by an outsourced fund management company governed by a board that serves its members and to ensure the best possible returns with minimal risk.

If CPF is benchmarked against these similar funds (their peers) they would be at the bottom. It the same reason why the Govt has refused to benchmark CPF till today.

For the first 18 years when Singapore and Malaysia together with Brunei had their respective currencies made interchangeable and were at parity, the EPF paid more returns than CPF.

Hri Kumar used the same bank argument because he knew his voters were ignorant of the world and it's practices when it came to pension funds. He also knew that the Straits Times will never do a comparison of returns with other similar funds if it shows the government in unfavourable light.

blindswordsman said:
The CPF pays annual interest higher than local banks. No argument. When CPF lends to GIC/TH at agreed annual fixed or floating interest rate, GIC/TH are free to on-lend to third parties or invest the funds at whatever returns beneficial to them. If they can get 18% pa on the returns, so be it but why should they pass back that 18% to CPF? It does not make sense.

ChaoPappyPoodle · Jun 16, 2014

blindswordsman said:
No, lah, not blind but facts are facts. Screwed? All sinkies have been screwed by pappies and will get screwed until pappies are no longer in control. Whatever you call them, financial investments, rollovers, etc, there is a funding source.

You asserted wrongly that CPF funds have been used for government projects related to providing goods and services. You used this as an excuse to allow your PAPzi masters to continue to launder CPF money that rightfully belongs to citizens. You have subsequently compounded your wrong by stating categorically that the government serves itself by rewarding itself to superlative rewards bought by the life-long savings of its citizens. You then agreed that the same government, after taking monthly, life-long savings from its citizens is allowed to charged a premium rate of interest to the same citizens for public housing that has been deliberately priced to enrich the government.

You are not actually daft but a devious low life!

Thick Face Black Heart · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
There's a saying "don't sweat the small stuff" that I took to heart a long time ago.

It does not matter what the PAP, LKY, LHL or CPF does in the grand scheme of things. All that matters is that property I buy for $200,000 can be sold at twice the price a few years later. The CPF can have their 2.5% interest. I don't give a shit.

Property will not appreciate at the same rate as before. The population pyramid tells everything. The baby boomers will retire soon and they will be cashing out assets.

Thick Face Black Heart · Jun 16, 2014

da dick said:
actually i believe in boss sam.

back in the 80s, it was very easy to make money off personal/small businesses and maybe even stock market(before it eventually crash anyway).

right now? no fucking way, GLCs have a monopoly on every major industry in sinkie(even powerful MNCs hate them!), and stock markets are a 1000X more inflated and risky than they were bfore late-80's crash. don't even need to talk about the current housing bubble. who is not insane to think a HDB PUBLIC flat should be worth up to over a million dollars?

Spot on. The carrying capacity of our economy is reaching saturation point. Those who think SG is a place for small biz to thrive or to invest in property are out of their minds. Our population pyramid is the same as Japan in the year 1990. And we know what happened after that. And even then Japan has two key advantage in that they have the land mass whereas we don't, and secondly they don't prostitute themselves to FTash like we do.

scroobal · Jun 16, 2014

Good post.

aurvandil said:
GMS hit the nail on the head when he said that demographically, the CPF issue has ripened and come of age.

This is what is driving the tsunami of unhappiness of the P65 over the CPF issue. It is a serious, widespread, bread-and-butter issue. The PAP is digging its own grave by dismissing it as a fringe issue that only concerns a small proportion of uncles/aunties who don't know how to manage money.

Leongsam · Jun 16, 2014

Thick Face Black Heart said:
Property will not appreciate at the same rate as before. The population pyramid tells everything. The baby boomers will retire soon and they will be cashing out assets.

I have never gone wrong with property. I made money in Singapore. I moved to Perth and made money there too. I then moved to Sydney and that was an even bigger windfall.

I then moved to Auckland and all my property investments have doubled in value since 2007. I have not sold anything yet but the yields are good.

Just buy the worst property in the best neighborhood. You won't go wrong. The market will have its ups and downs but as long as you're not overgeared, all you have to do is wait till the market reaches the point where you feel like taking profit.

Don't over analyse and don't be greedy. It doesn't matter if you sell too early. Nothing beats money in the bank.

Thick Face Black Heart · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
Just buy the worst property in the best neighborhood. You won't go wrong. The market will have its ups and downs but as long as you're not overgeared, all you have to do is wait till the market reaches the point where you feel like taking profit.

Don't over analyse and don't be greedy. It doesn't matter if you sell too early. Nothing beats money in the bank.

The saying is "the trend is your friend until it ends". The trend seems to have ended. Not wise to continue doing what worked before hoping that it will work again. What you need to to pick fresh trends and property is not one of them.

winners · Jun 16, 2014

Thick Face Black Heart said:
Spot on. The carrying capacity of our economy is reaching saturation point. Those who think SG is a place for small biz to thrive or to invest in property are out of their minds. Our population pyramid is the same as Japan in the year 1990. And we know what happened after that. And even then Japan has two key advantage in that they have the land mass whereas we don't, and secondly they don't prostitute themselves to FTash like we do.

I think you are contradicting yourself. It is precisely that we are land scarce (without a hinterland) and overpopulated with FTs that will continue to make property investments worthwhile. In addition, I'm sure the PAP is not going to let the property market to seriously collapse because it'll be detrimental to their governance. That is why even the $8 Cow is cutting back on the new BTOs lately and land sales by the government has also been cut down in 2H 2014 and onwards.

Leongsam · Jun 16, 2014

Thick Face Black Heart said:
The saying is "the trend is your friend until it ends". The trend seems to have ended. Not wise to continue doing what worked before hoping that it will work again. What you need to to pick fresh trends and property is not one of them.

I've heard that so many times and I've always ignored it. In 1983 when property reached ridiculous levels according to historical yardsticks, everyone I knew advised me to wait till after the market crashed before I bought my first investment property.

Choice land will always be scarce.

Thick Face Black Heart · Jun 16, 2014

winners said:
I think you are contradicting yourself. It is precisely that we are land scarce (without a hinterland) and overpopulated with FTs that will continue to make property investments worthwhile. In addition, I'm sure the PAP is not going to let the property market to seriously collapse because it'll be detrimental to their governance. That is why even the $8 Cow is cutting back on the new BTOs lately and land sales by the government has also been cut down in 2H 2014 and onwards.

The market has already priced in the scarcity of land and inflow of FTs. Moving forward, the pace of FT intake will slow down and the govt will continue cooling measures to appease the younger voters who vote 3L into Parliament.

Besides, after the pty has appreciated so much, what do you think they will do? They will do a Leongsam - sell, pack up, and leave. SG is just a stepping stone.

Asterix · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
It doesn't matter as long as I benefit personally.

Hallelujah! Congratulations, thou art a SINKIE, Amen!

[video=youtube;hpKE00F-B5g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpKE00F-B5g[/video]

Thick Face Black Heart · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
I've heard that so many times and I've always ignored it. In 1983 when property reached ridiculous levels according to historical yardsticks, everyone I knew advised me to wait till after the market crashed before I bought my first investment property.

Choice land will always be scarce.

In 1983, SG's GDP per capita was less than 1/4 where it is now, and our population was 1/2 where it is now. Your theory will be correct only if GDP per capita and population continue to grow at similar rates.

winners · Jun 16, 2014

Thick Face Black Heart said:
The market has already priced in the scarcity of land and inflow of FTs. Moving forward, the pace of FT intake will slow down and the govt will continue cooling measures to appease the younger voters who vote 3L into Parliament.

Besides, after the pty has appreciated so much, what do you think they will do? They will do a Leongsam - sell, pack up, and leave. SG is just a stepping stone.

I am still of the opinion that eventually, the 6.9m White Paper will materialize because as you can see, the PAP is furiously upgrading the infrastructure (more new MRT lines, more housing for both the locals and expatriates, and more entertainment and family outlets). With the continued low tax haven for the rich, it will still be able to draw them here.

Thick Face Black Heart · Jun 16, 2014

winners said:
I am still of the opinion that eventually, the 6.9m White Paper will materialize because as you can see, the PAP is furiously upgrading the infrastructure (more new MRT lines, more housing for both the locals and expatriates, and more entertainment and family outlets). With the continued low tax haven for the rich, it will still be able to draw them here.

True, that may well be the case. Just that whenever I see Leongsam's "double in value" posting with regard to property or similar posts, I feel it better to moderate one's expectations.

blindswordsman · Jun 16, 2014

ChaoPappyPoodle said:
.....You asserted wrongly that CPF funds have been used for government projects related to providing goods and services. You used this as an excuse to allow your PAPzi masters to continue to launder CPF money that rightfully belongs to citizens.

.

CPF is just like a money chest to the Govt. Also CPF and all other Ministries are digits of the same Govt machinery. Money from CPF can also flow to other Ministries to fund their projects, goods and services.

...to the same citizens for public housing that has been deliberately priced to enrich the government...

.

It is subjective argument whether Govt enriches itself or use the funds to stimulate the local economy like building the HDB flats for sinkies. Costs of construction and for materials, manpower, services, etc are factors for formulation of final selling price. If Govt does not raise taxes, it must seek borrowing from external sources and it becomes a foreign debt. SG is reputedly free of foreign debt. Good or bad? See the international confidence in Sing Dollars.

You are not actually daft but a devious low life!

.

LKY said sinkies are daft. Guess it applies to all sinkies. Devious low life? All sinkies are low life for being stupid to trust the pappies. Guess the high life are those selected to become pappies MP. Me? An ordinary sinkie but no, pappies are not my masters. I dislike pappies for what they do in some areas of governance but facts of life are just....facts.

scroobal · Jun 16, 2014

KJ did raise a point which I thought has lots of merit. That is to ask GIC to manage CPF directly. I am sure GIC operates within the same conservative risk framework when it manages state reserves. Personally I see very little differences between managing the same state reserves and CPF funds. Does anyone feel otherwise.

Imagine if they did for the last 40 years.

Thick Face Black Heart · Jun 16, 2014

scroobal said:
KJ did raise a point which I thought has lots of merit. That is to ask GIC to manage CPF directly. I am sure GIC operates within the same conservative risk framework when it manages state reserves. Personally I see very little differences between managing the same state reserves and CPF funds. Does anyone feel otherwise.

Imagine if they did for the last 40 years.

This arrangement would be closer to international norms, as opposed to our opaque system where the funds go through multiple loopholes and there is no transparency at all.

The only risk in such a portfolio is when a crisis like 2008 hits and you can see significant capital losses on even your bond portfolio depending on where you invested (except the safest of bonds like treasuries which skyrocket)

Conflating the issue - CPF vs Roy's error

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