Conflating the issue - CPF vs Roy's error

escher · Jun 15, 2014

Hang those PAP maggots cockroaches with piano wires from lamp posts to make them dance before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
BBQ those PAP maggots cockroaches before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
Cut a few more arseholes into those PAP maggots cockroaches to let out their shit before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
Make those PAP maggots cockroaches eat joss sticks and candle wax before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.

PAP is finished.
The stinking glue and terror that hold PAP together is that old fart smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY. LKY is about to die in days or weeks.
LKY will never allow good decent people into the PAP and good decent people will not want to get into the PAP. Those in PAP are the most corrupt and moral degenerates and moral bankrupts and moral filths that are being presented to stinkaporeans as moral compasses.
None of those in PAP work for anyone but that smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY, to help him hold down Singaporeans to screw and fuck hundreds of BILLIONs from us all into smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY stinkapore sovereign funds.
They are there in PAP because LKY know that they are a bunch of self serving greedy bastards and scrapings of scums of society. To call them maggots cockroaches will be to insult real maggots and real cockroaches.

WE ALL ARE NOW WAITING FOR THE DEATH OF LKY IN COMING DAYS OR WEEKS.
WE ALL WILL YUM SENG AND YUM SENG AND YUM SENG AGAIN AND AGAIN DANCING SINGING ON TABLE TOPS AND STREETS
WE THEN WILL SEE THOSE IN PAP WITH SHARPENED KNIVES HOOTING ARSEHLOON A DOZEN NEW ARSEHOLES AND THE DEATH OF THE ENTIRE LEE KWA CLAN
WE THEN WILL PICK UP PIANO WIRES AND HANG ALL THOSE REMAINING PAP AND THEIR COLLABORATORS FROM LAMP POSTS AND SEE THOSE BASTARDS AND BITCHES DANCE.
AND HAPPINESS WILL RETURN TO OUR LAND.
AND STINKAPORE WILL BECOME SINGAPORE ONCE MORE.
https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en

rushifa666 · Jun 15, 2014

I made at least 500% during the crisis. If I had my CPF money in hand I could have bought a flat in cash. Fuck you and your 2.5%. Anyone half competent will think that is derisive

virus · Jun 15, 2014

trust... can we trust them?

afterall there was a $2 papzi setup to handle town council matters. a company without experience nor resources would balantly take over a contract and act as middleman for IT companies. wasnt it a code of ethics by pap themselves not to be involved in the business yet the one who vigorously shot back was none then pinkie.

would you trust a $2 company with your personal particulars?

if such things can balantly be done, what more can we expect? that is a question that begs answer. yet in the midst of this all, the finance minister acted in total oblivion that a pertinent question needs to be answered as if he was in a witness stand held to the worlds of a koran or bible. so who created the doubts other then themselves.

kryonlight · Jun 15, 2014

tanwahtiu said:
CSJ time there is no internet and power of blogging and forums. CJS was squashed by the hand of a bully dictator who control MSM.

I firmly believe that votes will not come simply because of blogs and forums on the Internet.

Votes will only come when you have tilled the ground like what the WP is doing.

chonburifc · Jun 15, 2014

CPF stands for what? Central Provident Fund, dio boh? If CPF doesn't provide when one needs it most, might as well don't call provident. Call Central Plunder Fund better.

If own money cannot use during emergency, then it is no longer provision already. No longer your own money. Face it!

To TS, court also haven't decide, why u say Roy defame chow pinky? Maybe chow pinky really makan duit leh? you mean you so sure pinky never makan duit? Court also must prove pinky never makan duit. Dio boh? Now, this is call justice.

JHolmesJr · Jun 15, 2014

Leongsam said:
Without the CPF scheme, I can categorically state that I'd be at least $2.5 million poorer today as I would not have had sufficient income to purchase property for investment.

You used your cpf to finance properties that have earned you 2.5 million $ to date?

Leongsam · Jun 16, 2014

scroobal said:
Kaipoh is not denying that CPF has its value. Using your example, he is saying that had the govt given you a fair share of the returns, you probably could have been better than $2.5m

It's like the case of the kid who paid $10 for $12 worth of sweets and keeps praising the vendor about giving him the additional $2 worth while the same vendor gave all other kids $4 more.

Everyone is conveniently ignoring the most powerful factor of all... human nature.

Without CPF deductions, the money would be spent. Very few have the will power to save 15% to 20% of their salaries monthly. Even if they do succeed in putting money aside on a regular basis, anyone who believes that the working class uncles and aunties of Singapore will be able to achieve a 4% return on their savings is seriously deluded.

Many will end up being swindled of their savings. History is littered with such events from the chit funds of the 70s to the hi notes of the 21st century.

The beauty of CPF is that it funds the best long term investment of all ie property. Everyone in Singapore has benefitted immensely from CPF. Without the scheme, the collective wealth of Singaporeans would be only a fraction of what it is today.

Thick Face Black Heart · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
Everyone is conveniently ignoring the most powerful factor of all... human nature.

Without CPF deductions, the money would be spent. Very few have the will power to save 15% to 20% of their salaries monthly. Even if they do succeed in putting money aside on a regular basis, anyone who believes that the working class uncles and aunties of Singapore will be able to achieve a 4% return on their savings is seriously deluded.

We have thoroughly trashed the pros and cons to the CPF system, and it seems we can find no middle ground. This is my view: I think it's time we stepped back a little and looked at the larger picture. What is the kind of society are we are trying to achieve? And have we as individuals and as a collective reached a point where we can fulfill our potentials better with different national policies?

I'm sure that in a relative uneducated society or a society with poorer economic fundamentals, the CPF would be a fine scheme. Perhaps in such a society, government profiteering from the CPF system and issues like lack of transparency can be swept under the carpet because the people have far more pressing issues.

In my opinion however we have reached a point where people can shoulder more responsibilities by themselves, and hand-holding is no longer necessary. It is also time to ask about accountability and transparency and is the system still fair to us given how far we have come. Is it still OK for the government to dictate terms in such a manner, dish out returns on our savings as it pleases, whilst earning a profit from those same savings that are never disclosed? We have come to a stage of political and social maturity where it is time we asked those questions.

There are a lot of us here who feel the system must be improved. Obviously people like Cheongsam Jean think otherwise and that is fine. However, to me it is clear that we are no longer political and social kids, but have reached adulthood. Therefore it is time to shed the old policies that USED to work, but which no longer serves us well if we assume a position of complacency. It is like a teenager who refuses to cut off the mother's apron strings and remain in a state of ignorance and dependency.

We as citizens of Singapore want more. We look at the issues, the policies, and we say, this is not right. This needs to change. That is the process that is occurring now. The old no longer works, and even if it does work, it is no longer sufficient for us.

Narong Wongwan · Jun 16, 2014

Reddog said:
You are WRONG ! You will never be able to take out ALL the money you put in. NEVER. Even on the day you die there will always be money left (especially) in your Medisave Account. See your faulty thinking.

Whatever money left goes to your nok iF you nominated someone.....so its true you never get all your money when you die. Those without anyone the govt makan the money.
They dare to publish how much money they makaned so far this way?

da dick · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
Give me two percent compared to the daylight robbery of the NZ superannuation scheme where you take out only a fraction of what is contributed over 4 decades of working life. If you die at 70, that's $290x52x5 = $75,400. Once you kick the bucket, the payments stop. There is nothing to will to your dependents.

The average Kiwi pays at least 10% more in direct taxes and 8% more in consumption tax in order to fund welfare and retirement. All this for pittance in return.

when u gona quit NZ for burma?

Leongsam · Jun 16, 2014

da dick said:
when u gona quit NZ for burma?

I don't depend on government pensions. I started planning for my retirement way back in the 80s knowing full well that no pension scheme could ever fund the lifestyle I envisaged for myself once I retired.

It therefore does not matter where I live in the world as long as I can pursue my hobbies and avoid paying exorbitant taxes.

aurvandil · Jun 16, 2014

GMS hit the nail on the head when he said that demographically, the CPF issue has ripened and come of age.

As noted previously, the dangerous cut off point in PAP support is the P65 or those born after 1965. The oldest of this generation would have been 25 in 1990. They are therefore the first cohort which started to suffer under the economic mismanagement of the PAP. Not surprisingly, the incidence of PAP support among this and successive cohorts after P65 is much lower than earlier generations, leading to the projection that the PAP would fall from power once the P65 gain the demographic majority. This will happen overwhelmingly in 2021.

For the P65, they are 49 years old in 2014. CPF issues are therefore very close to the heart. The PAP is missing the point when they say that the CPF "risk-free" interest rate is much higher than what you can obtain commercially. This is only true if you are cash rich and have money to invest. It is a glaring lie if you are not cash rich and have to borrow to meet your obligations. If you go any bank, it will be hard to get less than 10% for unsecured credit - most people pay 12% to as much 16% depending on their credit rating. If you are looking for secured credit, the bank will not accept your car or your HDB flat. To meet your obligations in life (medical bills, children's education, weddings, funerals, grandchildren being born, roof started leaking, pipe burst etc), you are therefore stuck with paying the bank 1x% interest while the PAP pays you 2.5% to 4% for your CPF money. Making matters worse is the decade of high property prices which have soaked up a huge amount of cash from the P65. Many are therefore cash-poor and stuck with illiquid assets which have started to depreciate thanks to the numerous property "cooling" measures.

This is what is driving the tsunami of unhappiness of the P65 over the CPF issue. It is a serious, widespread, bread-and-butter issue. The PAP is digging its own grave by dismissing it as a fringe issue that only concerns a small proportion of uncles/aunties who don't know how to manage money.

da dick · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
I don't depend on government pensions. I started planning for my retirement way back in the 80s knowing full well that no pension scheme could ever fund the lifestyle I envisaged for myself once I retired.

It therefore does not matter where I live in the world as long as I can pursue my hobbies and avoid paying exorbitant taxes.

orly? i heard NZ taxes also damn high now loh. if u really want to chase low taxes, africa is the new frontier for that. but u better go there before the cheena colonise it completely and jew their gahmen into bloodsucking leeches like them.

ChaoPappyPoodle · Jun 16, 2014

aurvandil said:
GMS hit the nail on the head when he said that demographically, the CPF issue has ripened and come of age.

As noted previously, the dangerous cut off point in PAP support is the P65 or those born after 1965. The oldest of this generation would have been 25 in 1990. They are therefore the first cohort which started to suffer under the economic mismanagement of the PAP. Not surprisingly, the incidence of PAP support among this and successive cohorts after P65 is much lower than earlier generations, leading to the projection that the PAP would fall from power once the P65 gain the demographic majority. This will happen overwhelmingly in 2021.

For the P65, they are 49 years old in 2014. CPF issues are therefore very close to the heart. The PAP is missing the point when they say that the CPF "risk-free" interest rate is much higher than what you can obtain commercially. This is only true if you are cash rich and have money to invest. It is a glaring lie if you are not cash rich and have to borrow to meet your obligations. If you go any bank, it will be hard to get less than 10% for unsecured credit - most people pay 12% to as much 16% depending on their credit rating. If you are looking for secured credit, the bank will not accept your car or your HDB flat. To meet your obligations in life (medical bills, children's education, weddings, funerals, grandchildren being born, roof started leaking, pipe burst etc), you are therefore stuck with paying the bank 1x% interest while the PAP pays you 2.5% to 4% for your CPF money. Making matters worse is the decade of high property prices which have soaked up a huge amount of cash from the P65. Many are therefore cash-poor and stuck with illiquid assets which have started to depreciate thanks to the numerous property "cooling" measures.

This is what is driving the tsunami of unhappiness of the P65 over the CPF issue. It is a serious, widespread, bread-and-butter issue. The PAP is digging its own grave by dismissing it as a fringe issue that only concerns a small proportion of uncles/aunties who don't know how to manage money.

Why are you so stupid to accept even 4%. This is YOUR government using YOUR money to invest and they say they have earned 18% per annum. You should be asking for the full 18% that they earn. :oIo:
Why should you allow your government to shortchange you? Are you daft beyond any human capacity? The PAPzis have also siphoned off the CPF by charging sky high prices for public housing and then charging you 0.5% in interest over what they pay you for your CPF. How fucking stupid can people like you be? Then they refuse to give you your full savings and instead pay you a little each month, so little that even the interest on your quantum is more! :*:

Leongsam · Jun 16, 2014

da dick said:
orly? i heard NZ taxes also damn high now loh. if u really want to chase low taxes, africa is the new frontier for that. but u better go there before the cheena colonise it completely and jew their gahmen into bloodsucking leeches like them.

NZ taxes are high but I have structured my finances using Ltd companies and family trusts to minimise the tax burden. As a result, I pay only about 7% in taxes annually.

For example all my hobbies are registered as companies so that I can claim business expenses.

aurvandil · Jun 16, 2014

Unless CPF can pay the equivalent of what banks are charging for unsecured credit, Singaporeans will lose a significant amount of money whenever they have to go to a bank to borrow money because they are not allowed to touch their CPF money.

ChaoPappyPoodle said:
Why are you so stupid to accept even 4%. This is YOUR government using YOUR money to invest and they say they have earned 18% per annum. You should be asking for the full 18% that they earn. :oIo:
Why should you allow your government to shortchange you? Are you daft beyond any human capacity? The PAPzis have also siphoned off the CPF by charging sky high prices for public housing and then charging you 0.5% in interest over what they pay you for your CPF. How fucking stupid can people like you be? Then they refuse to give you your full savings and instead pay you a little each month, so little that even the interest on your quantum is more! :*:

sleaguepunter · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
NZ taxes are high but I have structured my finances using Ltd companies and family trusts to minimise the tax burden. As a result, I pay only about 7% in taxes annually.

For example all my hobbies are registered as companies so that I can claim business expenses.

i gather u own a couple of horses to offset taxes? :biggrin:

any chances of sam leong flag being hoist in melbourne cup?

winnipegjets · Jun 16, 2014

Leongsam said:
Everyone is conveniently ignoring the most powerful factor of all... human nature.

Without CPF deductions, the money would be spent. Very few have the will power to save 15% to 20% of their salaries monthly. Even if they do succeed in putting money aside on a regular basis, anyone who believes that the working class uncles and aunties of Singapore will be able to achieve a 4% return on their savings is seriously deluded.

We don't need to save 15 percent with the government. 2.5 percent is the contribution rate with the Canadian Pension Plan that provides a monthly $1k indexed to inflation from 65. A miserly 2.5 percent.
Why is our financial industry so backwards? The reason is because of the CPF. So much of sinkees money is sucked up by the government that sinkees have no means to invest.

Many will end up being swindled of their savings. History is littered with such events from the chit funds of the 70s to the hi notes of the 21st century.

Even the rich got swindled ...think Madoff.

The beauty of CPF is that it funds the best long term investment of all ie property. Everyone in Singapore has benefitted immensely from CPF. Without the scheme, the collective wealth of Singaporeans would be only a fraction of what it is today.

Wait till the bubble burst ...the government has been propping up the property market by policies ...that's the main reason why the government cannot shut the door to foreigners ...the foreigners are propping up the property market for now. But the burst will come. What will be your argument then?

blindswordsman · Jun 16, 2014

ChaoPappyPoodle said:
Why are you so stupid to accept even 4%. This is YOUR government using YOUR money to invest and they say they have earned 18% per annum. You should be asking for the full 18% that they earn.....The PAPzis have also siphoned off the CPF by charging sky high prices for public housing and then charging you 0.5% in interest over what they pay you for your CPF. Then they refuse to give you your full savings and instead pay you a little each month, so little that even the interest on your quantum is more!

The CPF pays annual interest higher than local banks. No argument. When CPF lends to GIC/TH at agreed annual fixed or floating interest rate, GIC/TH are free to on-lend to third parties or invest the funds at whatever returns beneficial to them. If they can get 18% pa on the returns, so be it but why should they pass back that 18% to CPF? It does not make sense.

Just like the ah longs operating in SG. Ah long (A) give loans at 6% per week to ah long (B) but obtains it from Master ah long at only 4% per month. Ah long (B) on-lends it to borrowers at 20% per week. Should ah long (B) share that 20% per week with ah long (A)? No. Similarly, the banks also pay you peanuts to on-lend to others at higher interest. The bankers will not tell you: "I make more money, I share it with you." This is business.

The rules of CPF are often tweaked, especially the minimum sum, to make it difficult for members to withdraw their CPF money at 55 yo as originally promised. This changing of rules is the main contention. Now sinkies want their money back at 55 years and no minimum sum either.

escher · Jun 16, 2014

chonburifc said:
CPF stands for what? Central Provident Fund, dio boh? If CPF doesn't provide when one needs it most, might as well don't call provident. Call Central Plunder Fund better.

If own money cannot use during emergency, then it is no longer provision already. No longer your own money. Face it!

To TS, court also haven't decide, why u say Roy defame chow pinky? Maybe chow pinky really makan duit leh? you mean you so sure pinky never makan duit? Court also must prove pinky never makan duit. Dio boh? Now, this is call justice.

Narong Wongwan said:
Whatever money left goes to your nok iF you nominated someone.....so its true you never get all your money when you die. Those without anyone the govt makan the money.
They dare to publish how much money they makaned so far this way?

Hang those PAP maggots cockroaches with piano wires from lamp posts to make them dance before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
BBQ those PAP maggots cockroaches before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
Cut a few more arseholes into those PAP maggots cockroaches to let out their shit before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
Make those PAP maggots cockroaches eat joss sticks and candle wax before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.

PAP is finished.
The stinking glue and terror that hold PAP together is that old fart smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY. LKY is about to die in days or weeks.
LKY will never allow good decent people into the PAP and good decent people will not want to get into the PAP. Those in PAP are the most corrupt and moral degenerates and moral bankrupts and moral filths that are being presented to stinkaporeans as moral compasses.
None of those in PAP work for anyone but that smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY, to help him hold down Singaporeans to screw and fuck hundreds of BILLIONs from us all into smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY stinkapore sovereign funds.
They are there in PAP because LKY know that they are a bunch of self serving greedy bastards and scrapings of scums of society. To call them maggots cockroaches will be to insult real maggots and real cockroaches.

WE ALL ARE NOW WAITING FOR THE DEATH OF LKY IN COMING DAYS OR WEEKS.
WE ALL WILL YUM SENG AND YUM SENG AND YUM SENG AGAIN AND AGAIN DANCING SINGING ON TABLE TOPS AND STREETS
WE THEN WILL SEE THOSE IN PAP WITH SHARPENED KNIVES HOOTING ARSEHLOON A DOZEN NEW ARSEHOLES AND THE DEATH OF THE ENTIRE LEE KWA CLAN
WE THEN WILL PICK UP PIANO WIRES AND HANG ALL THOSE REMAINING PAP AND THEIR COLLABORATORS FROM LAMP POSTS AND SEE THOSE BASTARDS AND BITCHES DANCE.
AND HAPPINESS WILL RETURN TO OUR LAND.
AND STINKAPORE WILL BECOME SINGAPORE ONCE MORE.
https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en

Conflating the issue - CPF vs Roy's error

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