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Singapore Bonds
- Thread starter Runifyouhaveto
- Start date
Re: Interesting Bond issues
You can ignore personal attack and go back there.. In Internet, everywhere also got mad people. Here also same.. even more crazy people.
You can ignore personal attack and go back there.. In Internet, everywhere also got mad people. Here also same.. even more crazy people.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
30 yrs yield of 3.85% from Apple is really pathetic. I have some Google bond 10 years with 3+ % yield which I think it is better investment
30 yrs yield of 3.85% from Apple is really pathetic. I have some Google bond 10 years with 3+ % yield which I think it is better investment
Re: Interesting Bond issues
good brother, the personal attacks are just the catalyst, an excuse for RUN to walk away. In fact, the SBF is a tougher drome. RUN started to feel uneasy when people there defended fiercely about the notion of owning/buying/selling physical gold and silvers + investments in specific stock counters, eg REITs.
Ok, it is perfectly ok to have differing opinions on shares but RUN came to realized that it is likely that some of team/moderators might be making a living out of web-traffic and peddling physical-gold. Absolutely nothing wrong but they didn't read carefully that RUN is also vested in similiar areas; just that i was advocating the investment in miners instead of physical gold/silver because RUN shared his field experience that our local precious metal market was inefficient and cornered by a few middlemen. Then they not happy wor =). So unfortunate, RUN also have about 30K worth of pure silver investment. I was just being less biased.
As days passes by, RUN suspects that the team/moderators behind the site contains either non-singaporean or new-immigrants with other agendas. There might be foreign-govt elements inside, systematically bashing and flaming true locals (in my opinion), and spreading neo-nazi anti-west beliefs . The nice guys (in my opinion) got silenced. These people never got banned or warned yet rewarded with repute points.
Too complicated city life over there, RUN is just a country mouse, that's why he walked away.
good brother, the personal attacks are just the catalyst, an excuse for RUN to walk away. In fact, the SBF is a tougher drome. RUN started to feel uneasy when people there defended fiercely about the notion of owning/buying/selling physical gold and silvers + investments in specific stock counters, eg REITs.
Ok, it is perfectly ok to have differing opinions on shares but RUN came to realized that it is likely that some of team/moderators might be making a living out of web-traffic and peddling physical-gold. Absolutely nothing wrong but they didn't read carefully that RUN is also vested in similiar areas; just that i was advocating the investment in miners instead of physical gold/silver because RUN shared his field experience that our local precious metal market was inefficient and cornered by a few middlemen. Then they not happy wor =). So unfortunate, RUN also have about 30K worth of pure silver investment. I was just being less biased.
As days passes by, RUN suspects that the team/moderators behind the site contains either non-singaporean or new-immigrants with other agendas. There might be foreign-govt elements inside, systematically bashing and flaming true locals (in my opinion), and spreading neo-nazi anti-west beliefs . The nice guys (in my opinion) got silenced. These people never got banned or warned yet rewarded with repute points.
Too complicated city life over there, RUN is just a country mouse, that's why he walked away.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
Good question Mr Fire. RUN has no knowledge of sg govt bond investment. However, i think you can buy here
https://secure.fundsupermart.com/main/sgs/SGShome.tpl
Or even buy through your stock broker/remisier as the prices are listed on sgx website (go to prices -> choose fixed income -> select sgs bonds)
Good question Mr Fire. RUN has no knowledge of sg govt bond investment. However, i think you can buy here
https://secure.fundsupermart.com/main/sgs/SGShome.tpl
Or even buy through your stock broker/remisier as the prices are listed on sgx website (go to prices -> choose fixed income -> select sgs bonds)
Re: Interesting Bond issues
the chart was an example of premium good-investment bonds going below par. it doesn't really matter for those who holds till maturity but it served as a warning that investors who got tempted by evil RMs to use bond financing can be bankrupted overnight during margin-calls (like shares-financing) when bond prices drop.
the chart was an example of premium good-investment bonds going below par. it doesn't really matter for those who holds till maturity but it served as a warning that investors who got tempted by evil RMs to use bond financing can be bankrupted overnight during margin-calls (like shares-financing) when bond prices drop.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
Your contribution in alternative investment like gold,reits and bonds are valuable especially in an increasing risky environment for investment. Why don't you go to fuckwarezone moneymind forum (http://forums.fuckwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/) .At least in that forum there are more like-minded people who are interested in diversifying their investment and more focus in discussing financial stuffs.
Your contribution in alternative investment like gold,reits and bonds are valuable especially in an increasing risky environment for investment. Why don't you go to fuckwarezone moneymind forum (http://forums.fuckwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/) .At least in that forum there are more like-minded people who are interested in diversifying their investment and more focus in discussing financial stuffs.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
Bond basically the borrower issue the buyer post dated cheque eg. 5 or 10 year in future.
By then(10 year in future) the cheque maybe bounce cheque because borrower may have bankrupt no money to pay for the bond(cheque) issue by the borrower.
Bond basically the borrower issue the buyer post dated cheque eg. 5 or 10 year in future.
By then(10 year in future) the cheque maybe bounce cheque because borrower may have bankrupt no money to pay for the bond(cheque) issue by the borrower.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
thanks bro. You know, those places are like hospitals. The gurus there are like specialists, got brain specialists(bonds), eye specialists (shares), ENT specialists(gold), breast specialists(FX), penis specialist (derivatives).
RUN did not even go uni, a specialist of none. RUN come here, can be himself.
RUN has his own problems, RUN is also patient, stilling on over 300K realized losses. Here nice, got similiar patients discuss thingies with me.
thanks bro. You know, those places are like hospitals. The gurus there are like specialists, got brain specialists(bonds), eye specialists (shares), ENT specialists(gold), breast specialists(FX), penis specialist (derivatives).
RUN did not even go uni, a specialist of none. RUN come here, can be himself.
RUN has his own problems, RUN is also patient, stilling on over 300K realized losses. Here nice, got similiar patients discuss thingies with me.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
Choose the finest among them. Eg. covered bonds, local banks or ultra deepblue local listed blue chips.
Choose the finest among them. Eg. covered bonds, local banks or ultra deepblue local listed blue chips.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
China Sees First Domestic Junk Bond Default
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/b...na-sees-first-domestic-junk-bond-default.html
Even China's famous high-class developer Country Garden issues (junk) bonds at >10% yields.
http://www.poems.com.hk/en-us/product-and-service/bonds/price
COUNTRY GARDEN HLDG CO 02/23/18 - 11.125%
COUNTRY GARDEN HLDG CO 09/10/14 - 11.75%
COUNTRY GARDEN HLDG CO 08/11/15 - 10.5%
COUNTRY GARDEN HLDG CO 04/22/17 - 11.25%
China Sees First Domestic Junk Bond Default
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/b...na-sees-first-domestic-junk-bond-default.html
Even China's famous high-class developer Country Garden issues (junk) bonds at >10% yields.
http://www.poems.com.hk/en-us/product-and-service/bonds/price
COUNTRY GARDEN HLDG CO 02/23/18 - 11.125%
COUNTRY GARDEN HLDG CO 09/10/14 - 11.75%
COUNTRY GARDEN HLDG CO 08/11/15 - 10.5%
COUNTRY GARDEN HLDG CO 04/22/17 - 11.25%
Re: Interesting Bond issues
That was a significant event for the week, 8x oversubscribed. However, RUN could not understand why a powerful bank like Deutsche bank needs to give 6.25-7.5% for perpetual securities, my OCBC only gives me 4% for their preference shares.
Then i came across this article,
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2014/05/21/1856372/about-that-deutsche-bank-capital
Alamak, these are Cocos bonds (Contingent convertible). More dangerous than preference shares.
Here's my layman explanation:
- Issuing ordinary shares will dilute current shareholders'control. So good and bad Banks are issuing perpetual securities or preference shares to increase capital-base to do larger business. (BASEL-III)
- There is no compulsory redemption or maturity dates for perpetual securities. The good banks don't really need our money, so they will explicitly hint that they will redeem back at first-call date with a self-imposed heavy penalty for not being able to do so. (maturity).
- Cocos are like preference shares BUT BUT BUT these shares can eventually be converted to ordinary shares (equities) in the event that banks face a sudden massive write-down, eg. lehman brother, citigroup, bank of america (back in 2008-10).
Note: Cocos are still quite rare. RUN will avoid Cocos. This is a superb write-up on Cocos.
http://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1309f.pdf
That was a significant event for the week, 8x oversubscribed. However, RUN could not understand why a powerful bank like Deutsche bank needs to give 6.25-7.5% for perpetual securities, my OCBC only gives me 4% for their preference shares.
Then i came across this article,
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2014/05/21/1856372/about-that-deutsche-bank-capital
Alamak, these are Cocos bonds (Contingent convertible). More dangerous than preference shares.
Here's my layman explanation:
- Issuing ordinary shares will dilute current shareholders'control. So good and bad Banks are issuing perpetual securities or preference shares to increase capital-base to do larger business. (BASEL-III)
- There is no compulsory redemption or maturity dates for perpetual securities. The good banks don't really need our money, so they will explicitly hint that they will redeem back at first-call date with a self-imposed heavy penalty for not being able to do so. (maturity).
- Cocos are like preference shares BUT BUT BUT these shares can eventually be converted to ordinary shares (equities) in the event that banks face a sudden massive write-down, eg. lehman brother, citigroup, bank of america (back in 2008-10).
Note: Cocos are still quite rare. RUN will avoid Cocos. This is a superb write-up on Cocos.
http://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1309f.pdf
Re: Interesting Bond issues
There is no absolute guru on investment in internet forum..even the best hedge fund can lose money.. Because u lose 300K, u r a good learning lesson. I believe the reason u dabble in bond now is because it is a safer investment.
There is no absolute guru on investment in internet forum..even the best hedge fund can lose money.. Because u lose 300K, u r a good learning lesson. I believe the reason u dabble in bond now is because it is a safer investment.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
For 2 reasons bro,
- Bond is part of my portfolio.
- Bond is an important indicator of what to expect
Straits times got an article today called "For stock direction, look to bond market"
The global bond market value is nearly double of the global equity market value...... and the global derivatives market is more than 12x the value of the global bond market. Penis specialists peddles porn derivatives like accumulators, structured notes, CBBCs, futures n options to make us erect. Please don't learn from the penis specialists; penis erections don't last permanently.
Porn makes men impotent
For 2 reasons bro,
- Bond is part of my portfolio.
- Bond is an important indicator of what to expect
Straits times got an article today called "For stock direction, look to bond market"
The global bond market value is nearly double of the global equity market value...... and the global derivatives market is more than 12x the value of the global bond market. Penis specialists peddles porn derivatives like accumulators, structured notes, CBBCs, futures n options to make us erect. Please don't learn from the penis specialists; penis erections don't last permanently.
Porn makes men impotent
Re: Interesting Bond issues
due to temasek's takeover of Olam, current SGX-mainboard listed shareholders may choose to redeem their bonds (at par value) before 2020 maturity due ""Change of Control Put Option"
- Change of Control because of temasek
- Put option = right to offload (earlier)
Last day to offload: 25 June 2014.
Based on today's closing price, i think most bondholders will choose to offload in open market if they wanna stop holding the bond (to enjoy some price premium).
Announcement:
Following the occurrence of a Change of Control, holders of Bonds have the right, at such
holder's option, to require the Issuer to redeem all or some only of their Bonds (the "Change
of Control Put Option") on the Change of Control Redemption Date referred to below at 100
per cent. of their principal amount together plus unpaid accrued interest (calculated up to but
excluding the Change of Control Redemption Date) (the "Change of Control Redemption").
http://infopub.sgx.com/FileOpen/26M...50m_Bonds.ashx?App=Announcement&FileID=298743
due to temasek's takeover of Olam, current SGX-mainboard listed shareholders may choose to redeem their bonds (at par value) before 2020 maturity due ""Change of Control Put Option"
- Change of Control because of temasek
- Put option = right to offload (earlier)
Last day to offload: 25 June 2014.
Based on today's closing price, i think most bondholders will choose to offload in open market if they wanna stop holding the bond (to enjoy some price premium).
Announcement:
Following the occurrence of a Change of Control, holders of Bonds have the right, at such
holder's option, to require the Issuer to redeem all or some only of their Bonds (the "Change
of Control Put Option") on the Change of Control Redemption Date referred to below at 100
per cent. of their principal amount together plus unpaid accrued interest (calculated up to but
excluding the Change of Control Redemption Date) (the "Change of Control Redemption").
http://infopub.sgx.com/FileOpen/26M...50m_Bonds.ashx?App=Announcement&FileID=298743
Re: Interesting Bond issues
Hyflux 6% was a milestone in local investment scene:
- Hyflux issued the pref shares to finance their 2010 delisting of hyflux water trust cheaply after the subprime crisis. They have no problem servicing 6% coupon with income from the delisted water trust. It was delisted at $0.78 when last annual distribution was appx $0.12 = 15% yield back then.
- RUN likes the leadership because she choose to peg her wealth against the performance of the company, drawing a small salary.
- Hyflux 6%, educated public about the possibility of owning fixed income instruments directly. It is better than investing in bonds unit trusts which gives medicore 2-4% annual returns?
- It included cumulative feature = this year no pay coupon, next year still must pay. This feature is not found in many blue chips preference shares.
ok, the price premium is an added bonus. Bond investors should not be really looking at this feature unless they loves flipping (with leveraged positions).
Hyflux 6% was a milestone in local investment scene:
- Hyflux issued the pref shares to finance their 2010 delisting of hyflux water trust cheaply after the subprime crisis. They have no problem servicing 6% coupon with income from the delisted water trust. It was delisted at $0.78 when last annual distribution was appx $0.12 = 15% yield back then.
- RUN likes the leadership because she choose to peg her wealth against the performance of the company, drawing a small salary.
- Hyflux 6%, educated public about the possibility of owning fixed income instruments directly. It is better than investing in bonds unit trusts which gives medicore 2-4% annual returns?
- It included cumulative feature = this year no pay coupon, next year still must pay. This feature is not found in many blue chips preference shares.
ok, the price premium is an added bonus. Bond investors should not be really looking at this feature unless they loves flipping (with leveraged positions).
Re: Interesting Bond issues
From now till 2020, still 5.5 years to maturity.
Wouldn't it be better to hold on to it till 2020 rather then redeem at par?.
Unless there is an early clause where it's stated they are allowed to redeem it earlier.
From now till 2020, still 5.5 years to maturity.
Wouldn't it be better to hold on to it till 2020 rather then redeem at par?.
Unless there is an early clause where it's stated they are allowed to redeem it earlier.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
At 6% is definitely attractive, except that buying it now, is on the high side, last saw was almost at 106.5.
What's the yield if I were to buy it at 106.5, in this case.
At 6% is definitely attractive, except that buying it now, is on the high side, last saw was almost at 106.5.
What's the yield if I were to buy it at 106.5, in this case.
Re: Interesting Bond issues
Based on this information
http://hyflux.listedcompany.com/newsroom/20110413_112303_600_4A38112CA5F055CD48257871000FD2A5.3.pdf
First Call Date: 25 April 2018 (will usually redeem back, self-imposed penalty to hint redemption: coupon increase to 8% after that FCD)
Months Till FCD: 47 months
Remaining Coupon Payouts: 8 x 3% (semi annual) = 24%
Premium Based on today's price = 6.5% (including accrued interests, excluding commission)
Yield Estimate till FCD = (24 - 6.5) * 12/47months = 4.468%pa (note: not fully accurate due to appx 1-mth of underlying accrued interests adjustment)
This is an online bond yield calculator, (commissions excluded)
http://www.quantwolf.com/calculators/bondyieldcalc.html
Based on this information
http://hyflux.listedcompany.com/newsroom/20110413_112303_600_4A38112CA5F055CD48257871000FD2A5.3.pdf
First Call Date: 25 April 2018 (will usually redeem back, self-imposed penalty to hint redemption: coupon increase to 8% after that FCD)
Months Till FCD: 47 months
Remaining Coupon Payouts: 8 x 3% (semi annual) = 24%
Premium Based on today's price = 6.5% (including accrued interests, excluding commission)
Yield Estimate till FCD = (24 - 6.5) * 12/47months = 4.468%pa (note: not fully accurate due to appx 1-mth of underlying accrued interests adjustment)
This is an online bond yield calculator, (commissions excluded)
http://www.quantwolf.com/calculators/bondyieldcalc.html
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