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South Korea: Actions of sunken ferry captain 'akin to murder'
- Thread starter yellowarse
- Start date
You're right. The outrage stems from the fundamental distrust of govt by both the Chinese and Koreans. But Koreans on the whole are likely to be more extreme in their public demonstration of rage or grief. Self-immolations, dismembering body parts and physical violence are rare in Chinese protests (the self-immolations in Tibet were by ethnic Tibetans) but are common in Korea. There's some similarity there with the seppuku culture of the samurai.
The Japs are more stoical in times of disaster or crisis, true, but their darker sadistic side comes out in war, and no nation, not even the Nazis, comes close to the way in which the Japs can commit the most gruesome acts with zero moral compunction, often in the name of submitting to a higher cause or authority. In peace time, this sadism is sublimated into the many weird fetishes that the Japs have, often of a sexual or erotic nature.
Still, Confucianist values bind all 3 cultures: reverence for elders, deference to authority, emphasis on education and the family unit, group above self, subordinate role of women in society. But the ways in which they have developed in recent centuries have meant a divergence of paths with some aspects being emphasized and some diluted among the 3 countries. Women's rights are probably strongest in China (thanks to communism), while respect for elders is very palpable in Korea, and superiors taking responsibility for a crisis still forms the bedrock of Japanese corporate culture.
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You're sharp: the double standard is blinding.
And while it started with the liberal West which has traditionally viewed communist or ex-communist nations with distrust, this is now being perpetrated by the Asians themselves, particularly those who align blindly with the reigning order of the day, to wit, Pax Americana. Couple of phrases come to mind: internalized racism, Pinkerton's syndrome. These people can't take a nuanced view of geo-political issues because they're viewing the world through heavily tinted Ray-Bans provided by Uncle Sam: you're either with us or against us.
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Kinda of reminds me of Spore. It's an honest mistake. Some of these glitches are causing deaths : among NS men, construction workers,... Never mind lets move on to the next fiasco.
Maybe that's why we keep having glitches in the Spore system
Moral of story, don't just think about making $$$ or saving money: it is but just one parameter of valuation/ measurement. ALWAYS PUT SAFETY FIRST.
Dunno what r Korean safety standards, but I think mixing cargo with humans is definitely a no-no thing to do: apparently, the Sewol had containers weighing 1,100 ton on board, like excess of 150trucks and cars parked and all probably unsecured to the hull: thus when the ship looses balance a bit, every thing topples over and the ship quickly overturns. Rescue is also more difficult cos the dead weight cargo now weighs the whole ship upside-down and humans cannot dive under high pressure for long let alone survive in limited oxygen given the propensity of high water pressure to make air leak out of air pockets etc...
The whole shipping service was basically a bomb waiting to explode an unfortunately, many kids were on board at that time. Such old time ships are probably WW2 military era style for troop lift, but not suitable for peacetime use. Even passenger aeroplanes only carry innocent lightweight cargo: e.g mangosteens and are not supposed to carry lithium ion batteries.
That is why I think it would be a great miracle if divers can still save anyone trapped inside time has lapsed too far and the complex cargo design of the ship makes rescue difficult if not impossible to achieve...
i concur seriously speaking who ever claimed that hiding one's sorrow = culturally superior. Seriously who made the rules?
It's also BS that when such comparisons are made well ppl are always going to place the japs higher and you know cos of K pop and samsung etc the koreans have to be higher than the chinese and i am surprised he didn't try to place the koreans higher up. Actually with korea rising so much it should be higher up vs japan.
You ever notice whenever they bring in these 3 races it's always like japan has to be higher up the korea next and china last and if you bring in vietnam then it comes in last.
if your father open a unlimited bank , you can start a loss making ferry just shifting people.
for the rest of the world, mixing is economic reality.
for the rest of the world, mixing is economic reality.
the captain did fxxk up, but he is no murderer. victim also have responsibility to think for themselves.
Historically (from Tang onwards) it's always been China right at the top, followed by Vietnam and Korea (vassal states), and Japan as the youngest civilization in East Asia. Practically everything came from China: culture, language, court customs and rituals, government & state craft, religion, architecture, literature, military strategy, food, clothing.
When the 4 dragons became industrialized in the late '70s, Taiwan was leading the pack technologically, with HK and Singapore heading the GDP numbers (being cities), and Korea last to develop. The Hsinchu Science Park still generates 70% of global IT products.
It was only in the last 20 years, after the Seoul Olympics, that S. Korea started its technological ascent led by chaebols, joined the OECD, and only in the last 10 years ramped up its soft power (K-pop & K-drama). A friend who bought the Hyundai Excel in 1993 swore never to buy Korean again after the window handle and air-con knob came off within 3 mths, and he never did.
In terms of per capita GDP, HK and S'pore still lead the pack. As for mass transit, HK is the global leader in terms of profitability and efficiency; while Taiwan's high speed rail is #3 in Asia after China and Japan. And Singapore's city planning is streets ahead of Seoul.
hahaha...you obviously are not familiar with the marine industry.....
Sewol is ROpax vessel built to carry passengers, vehicles and TEU containers.....this type of vessel is common all over the world....
all merchant vessels are designed and built to the requirements of one of the Classification Societies ...
Sewol, was originally built in Japan to Japanese Owner so it would have been classed under NK...
the vessel was bought by Korean owner and now operates in Korea so it was re-classed under KR....
both NK and KR are members of IACS.....
free surface effect can have a big influence on vessel stability so vessels are usually built with many watertight compartments....
Ropax vessels have very large open vehicle decks and hence any ingress of water into the vehicle deck can capsized the vessel easily....
there have been a few cases of Ropax capsizing in shallow water in Europe due to free surface effect....
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It's not just fuckin' up; it's criminal. We don't live in a cowboy world. Murder might be too extreme a word, but abandoning ship is a crime in many countries. A captain's first responsibility is to take care of the safety of the crew and passengers.
Abandon ship? In recent maritime disasters, captains don't hang around
By Jethro Mullen, CNN
April 22, 2014 -- Updated 0152 GMT (0952 HKT)
(CNN) -- When the HMS Birkenhead, a British ship carrying troops, began to sink off the coast of South Africa in 1852, the captain and military officers on board famously allowed women and children to board the lifeboats first.
The captain and many of the troops stayed on the ship until the last, perishing in the ocean as the women and children made their way to safety. Their chivalrous act of self-sacrifice is considered to have helped set the standard for noble conduct at sea.
Other displays of courage by captains and crew members who put their passengers first have punctuated the decades since, like Capt. Edward J. Smith who went down with the Titanic.
But such bravery has been conspicuously absent from two major maritime disasters in recent times.
Capt. Lee Joon-seok of the Sewol, the South Korean ferry that sunk last week, has come under heavy criticism for abandoning the ship while hundreds of passengers remained on board. Dozens of them died and more than 200 were still missing Monday.
Lee's actions have prompted comparisons to those of Capt. Francesco Schettino who was in command of the cruise ship Costa Concordia, which crashed into a reef off the Italian coast in 2012, killing 32 people.
Witnesses said Schettino jumped into a lifeboat to flee the ship, even though hundreds of passengers were still on board. In his trial, the captain said he fell into a lifeboat when the ship listed sharply.
Schettino is now on trial on charges of manslaughter, causing a maritime disaster and abandoning ship with passengers still on board. He denies wrongdoing.
The cases of the Sewol and the Costa Concordia have raised questions about a captain's obligations to passengers when a vessel runs into trouble.
Go down with ship?
By leaving the Sewol soon after it began sinking, Lee reneged on some of his key duties, experts say.
"The captain's first obligation is for the safety of his crew and passengers," Capt. James Staples, a maritime consultant, told CNN. "He should stay on board that vessel until he knows everybody is safely evacuated.
"And then the other reason he stays on board the vessel is for salvage rights. For the captain to leave the vessel in an early situation, it's not the way it should be done."
An international maritime convention on the safety of life at sea makes a captain responsible for the vessel and all the people on board, but it doesn't stipulate that the captain stay on the ship throughout the crisis.
"You don't necessarily want a captain dying with a ship. But he has a responsibility for the safety of everybody on board that ship," said Cade Courtley, former Navy SEAL and president and founder of SEAL Survival.
"He's got to be there and take care of that," Courtley told CNN. "And this guy didn't do that. He was one of the first off. I mean, that's kind of unforgivable, basically."
Criminal charges
Some countries, including Italy and South Korea, make abandoning ship a maritime crime.
And similarly to Schettino in Italy, Lee is facing criminal charges over his role in the disaster, including abandoning his ship, negligence, causing bodily injury and not seeking rescue from other ships.
South Korean President Park Geun-hye has likened the actions of Lee and some of the ferry's crew members to murder.
Schettino and Lee are not alone in leaving a doomed ship before their passengers, though.
As well as the role of honor for captains who went down with their vessels, there is hall of shame for those who jumped ship.
In one example, the Italian steamer Sirio was wrecked off the Spanish coast in 1906, killing more than 150 people.
Its captain was reported to have abandoned the ship at the first opportunity, but he died the following year of "a broken heart" according to a report in The New York Times.
Delayed evacuation
Lee has drawn particular criticism for apparently ordering passengers to delay the evacuation of the Sewol as it foundered.
"The captain should have been passing honest and clear information on to everyone as to the situation, not telling them to just sit," said William Doherty, a retired captain with the U.S. Merchant Marines.
Lee has defended his actions.
"It is a fairly fast current area, and the water temperature was cold," he said, according to local media.
"I thought that abandoning the ship without discretion would make you drift off a fairly far distance and cause a lot of trouble. At the same time, the rescue ship did not come, and there were no fishing boats or supporting ships around to help at that time."
Leadership vacuum
Lee's early departure may have exacerbated the crisis on board the ship, said Doherty, who teaches safety management at the Massachusetts Maritime Academy.
"When the leadership cuts and runs, it leaves a vacuum that is almost impossible to fill," he told CNN.
"There should have been crewmembers going to the life raft stations. There should have been crew members mustering the passengers. So you know your head count. If there are missing people, there should have been other crew members searching the vessel to find those people."
Although U.S. law doesn't specify abandoning ship as a crime, it's a long-standing tradition that the captain be the last one off a sinking ship, according to legal experts.
"Generally speaking, the captain is the last person to get off that vessel," Staples said.
Nice try. Last I heard he was still alive, in police custody. Now go report that to your Pappy masters.
A heroine steps up to the plate in place of cowardly captain and crew.
As Sewol crew is scorned, young worker hailed as heroine
By Madison Park and Stella Kim, CNN
April 23, 2014 -- Updated 0101 GMT (0901 HKT)
Witnesses say Park Jee Young, a 22-year-old crew member, refused a life vest because she was too busy helping passengers.
Incheon, South Korea (CNN) -- The number of crew members charged is rising, and so is the anger that families feel.
But there's one crew member they are leaving out: Park Jee Young, 22, who by witness accounts helped passengers escape and distributed life jackets -- one after the other to students -- as the stricken ferry began to sink.
When she ran out of jackets, she ran to the next floor to grab more.
When she was asked why she wasn't wearing a life jacket, Park said that crew members would be last and that she had to help others first, according to witness accounts to South Korean media.
Park's body now lies in a funeral home in the city of Incheon.
She is one of the more than 100 people dead; 174 remain missing.
The other day, a man with injuries to his head showed up to the funeral room where Park's memorial stands.
When asked by Park's family who he was, the man said that he had been injured in the ferry and that he was "indebted" to the young woman who placed a towel on his bloody head and helped him as the water rose.
"She was so responsible and so kind," said her grandmother, Choi Sun Dok, 75, who sat on the floor, slumped against a wall, no longer able to stand. Her family members kneeled with her, holding her hand and weeping together on the floor.
White mums and lilies, which signify death, poured in from strangers, covering the hallway leading to her memorial room. The flowers contain messages like "We will not forget your noble spirit." "We will always remember your sacrifice." "Hero." An online petition has gone up urging the government to award her a Good Samaritan award.
Her relatives say Park wanted to stay in college, but she felt responsible for supporting her family after her father passed away two years ago. So she dropped out and joined the ferry company in 2012. She was transferred to a bigger ship, the Sewol, about six months ago, because she had proved her capabilities, her relatives said.
The Sewol's sinking has left many appalled by the alleged actions of several members of the crew -- including the captain, who now faces a series of criminal charges for his role in last week's sinking.
"This is so unfair that our Jee Young had to die while the captain ran away," said her aunt, who declined to give her name. "Jee Young was so responsible, and the captain just ran away."
Over two-thirds of those on board were students on a high school field trip, many of whom remain missing.
As Sewol crew is scorned, young worker hailed as heroine
By Madison Park and Stella Kim, CNN
April 23, 2014 -- Updated 0101 GMT (0901 HKT)
Witnesses say Park Jee Young, a 22-year-old crew member, refused a life vest because she was too busy helping passengers.
Incheon, South Korea (CNN) -- The number of crew members charged is rising, and so is the anger that families feel.
But there's one crew member they are leaving out: Park Jee Young, 22, who by witness accounts helped passengers escape and distributed life jackets -- one after the other to students -- as the stricken ferry began to sink.
When she ran out of jackets, she ran to the next floor to grab more.
When she was asked why she wasn't wearing a life jacket, Park said that crew members would be last and that she had to help others first, according to witness accounts to South Korean media.
Park's body now lies in a funeral home in the city of Incheon.
She is one of the more than 100 people dead; 174 remain missing.
The other day, a man with injuries to his head showed up to the funeral room where Park's memorial stands.
When asked by Park's family who he was, the man said that he had been injured in the ferry and that he was "indebted" to the young woman who placed a towel on his bloody head and helped him as the water rose.
"She was so responsible and so kind," said her grandmother, Choi Sun Dok, 75, who sat on the floor, slumped against a wall, no longer able to stand. Her family members kneeled with her, holding her hand and weeping together on the floor.
White mums and lilies, which signify death, poured in from strangers, covering the hallway leading to her memorial room. The flowers contain messages like "We will not forget your noble spirit." "We will always remember your sacrifice." "Hero." An online petition has gone up urging the government to award her a Good Samaritan award.
Her relatives say Park wanted to stay in college, but she felt responsible for supporting her family after her father passed away two years ago. So she dropped out and joined the ferry company in 2012. She was transferred to a bigger ship, the Sewol, about six months ago, because she had proved her capabilities, her relatives said.
The Sewol's sinking has left many appalled by the alleged actions of several members of the crew -- including the captain, who now faces a series of criminal charges for his role in last week's sinking.
"This is so unfair that our Jee Young had to die while the captain ran away," said her aunt, who declined to give her name. "Jee Young was so responsible, and the captain just ran away."
Over two-thirds of those on board were students on a high school field trip, many of whom remain missing.
Barbaric Gooks turn violent.
South Korea Ferry: Families Attack Coastguard
Relatives of the young victims beat up an official, as they claim that the scale of the rescue operation was exaggerated.
A government official who arrived was caught up in the melee
Relatives of missing victims of the South Korea ferry disaster have forced their way into the office of the coastguard and attacked its Deputy Director, Choi Sang-Hwan.
The furious families accused him of overstating the scale of the recovery operation, claiming what they saw during a boat trip to the disaster area did not match his description of events.
Some 20 relatives pulled him outside and ripped his shirt before punching and slapping him around the face and neck.
Choi was held until other officials arrived who were then subjected to questioning on the recovery effort.
Some parents of the mostly teenage victims of the ferry disaster have also demanded post-mortem examinations that might show if their children had been alive inside the submerged vessel and only died because the emergency response was so slow.
The events came as prosecutors raided the offices of South Korea's shipping watchdog and have begun probing the assets of the operator of the sunken ferry.
Investigators are also searching the offices of some 20 companies affiliated to the operator, Cheonghaejin Marine Ltd.
The ship capsized off the coast of South Korea with 476 passengers and crew on board, some 300 of whom drowned or who are missing and presumed dead.
"The objective was to investigate malpractices and corruption in the entire shipping industry," Song In-taek, of the Incheon District Prosecution Service, told reporters.
Prosecutors have also raided the home of Yoo Byung-un, the head of a family that owns the company, and are looking into the assets of Yoo's family for any indications of fraud.
The move widens a criminal investigation which has seen the ferry's captain Lee Joon-Seok and six crew members arrested on suspicion of violating maritime law which requires crew to ensure passenger safety before abandoning ship.
On Thursday, four crew members, including the ship's engineer, were paraded on South Korean television with their heads bowed.
The engineer has told investigators he was not aware of any problems when the ship ran into trouble, following reports the ferry did not take on sufficient ballast to counter its cargo weight.
"I did not see any signs. There were no problems," he said when asked by investigators if there were any technical issues with the engine or the ship's ballast tanks.
The engineer said he and six other crew members who were on the third deck had abandoned ship "right before it sank".
Another member wept and said she was "very sorry" for the families of the victims and the missing.
"What I did was really wrong. I am sorry," she said.
Diving teams are still searching the sunken vessel in pitch black conditions for the remaining bodies of those on board.
Meanwhile, the boy who first raised the alarm that the ferry was sinking has been found drowned in the wreckage of the vessel, his parents believe.
His parents said they had seen his body and clothes and identified his body, but he has not been formally identified with a DNA test.
South Korea Ferry: Families Attack Coastguard
Relatives of the young victims beat up an official, as they claim that the scale of the rescue operation was exaggerated.
A government official who arrived was caught up in the melee
Relatives of missing victims of the South Korea ferry disaster have forced their way into the office of the coastguard and attacked its Deputy Director, Choi Sang-Hwan.
The furious families accused him of overstating the scale of the recovery operation, claiming what they saw during a boat trip to the disaster area did not match his description of events.
Some 20 relatives pulled him outside and ripped his shirt before punching and slapping him around the face and neck.
Choi was held until other officials arrived who were then subjected to questioning on the recovery effort.
Some parents of the mostly teenage victims of the ferry disaster have also demanded post-mortem examinations that might show if their children had been alive inside the submerged vessel and only died because the emergency response was so slow.
The events came as prosecutors raided the offices of South Korea's shipping watchdog and have begun probing the assets of the operator of the sunken ferry.
Investigators are also searching the offices of some 20 companies affiliated to the operator, Cheonghaejin Marine Ltd.
The ship capsized off the coast of South Korea with 476 passengers and crew on board, some 300 of whom drowned or who are missing and presumed dead.
"The objective was to investigate malpractices and corruption in the entire shipping industry," Song In-taek, of the Incheon District Prosecution Service, told reporters.
Prosecutors have also raided the home of Yoo Byung-un, the head of a family that owns the company, and are looking into the assets of Yoo's family for any indications of fraud.
The move widens a criminal investigation which has seen the ferry's captain Lee Joon-Seok and six crew members arrested on suspicion of violating maritime law which requires crew to ensure passenger safety before abandoning ship.
On Thursday, four crew members, including the ship's engineer, were paraded on South Korean television with their heads bowed.
The engineer has told investigators he was not aware of any problems when the ship ran into trouble, following reports the ferry did not take on sufficient ballast to counter its cargo weight.
"I did not see any signs. There were no problems," he said when asked by investigators if there were any technical issues with the engine or the ship's ballast tanks.
The engineer said he and six other crew members who were on the third deck had abandoned ship "right before it sank".
Another member wept and said she was "very sorry" for the families of the victims and the missing.
"What I did was really wrong. I am sorry," she said.
Diving teams are still searching the sunken vessel in pitch black conditions for the remaining bodies of those on board.
Meanwhile, the boy who first raised the alarm that the ferry was sinking has been found drowned in the wreckage of the vessel, his parents believe.
His parents said they had seen his body and clothes and identified his body, but he has not been formally identified with a DNA test.
Read somewhere that the captain and some of the crew gone but left the repeat broadcast on asking passengers to wear life jacket and remain seated. The crew who left are really murderers.
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MRT accident next. You guess where?
hahaha...no matter how much hatred u have for papee...it cannot be justified to wish for major accidents in Singapore to happen and hope that the incidents can be used to embarrass papee..
we really need to reflect upon this and not wish for such things to happen...regardless of your political affiliation....
we really need to reflect upon this and not wish for such things to happen...regardless of your political affiliation....
To wish for accidents to happen in Singapore to shame PAP is the lowest of lows..........karma is a bitch.
