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Rental and Resale (All about Rental and Resale prices in Iskandar)

Tekkun

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Thanks for the informative write up.

Perhaps in some cases it is better to bleed slowly and attempt to stemmed off bleeding rather than to chop off body parts? Sometimes bleeding can still be stopped and situation can be salvaged...but body parts chopped off means forever gone liao...

The S&P is like a marriage certificate. Once signed, it is for life until death. Of course you can get a divorce, but you pay 50% of your assets to her.
The minute you default and the bank blacklist you, chances are you will never get another loan in Malaysia.
 

sgtsk

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Come on. Different people have different social conditions and lifestyle. Mr Frodo has to make sacrifices too. Nothing comes for free.

And don't forget, he is working.

The example I gave is of someone already retrenched. No job. Since that was the case brought up previously.


So the more for people who still hold a job to plan ahead...just like so many here are doing, despite all the gluts and possible risks. It is a matter of one's priority.
 

kawan2sgmy

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Looks like no good way out for those who have committed, die die must hold on to the property; if buyer not willing to move forward, but also can't move backwards!
Let's say buyer default on the purchase somewhere down the road, what is the likely scenario? Will the bank sue the buyer in Singapore, and seize their assets, and sue until bankrupt? By this time buyer will forfeit whatever has been paid to bank, and all is lost hope. But is it really going to be this bad? Is there a better way to get out of this mess before it gets messier? Happy happy go JB to buy a property hoping to make some money, and then skarly end up getting entangled into this legal tussle!
Can some kind soul help to enlighten?
Btw, I don't own any property in JB as of now, just curious to know if one gets into such situation.


For the benefit everyone here, this is how I see it. Check it out with your lawyers, read the S&P, go to REDHA website for details, etc. We are talking about normal projects that had begun and not those abandoned ones.
Long winded, I hope it benefit everyone here. I am not a lawyer, just from my experience.

There is NO clause in Sales And Purchase Agreement that Purchaser can terminate the S & P. Once signed, it is binding already.
It cannot be revoked.


Purchaser can’t even sell it as the property is not handed over. Technically it is not even registered in his name. No transfer allowed as long as caveats are in place. The master title belong to the developer. Registration only happen when the entire project is completed and names submitted for strata title processing.

The only way to get out is to allow the Purchase to default and determine the Agreement which allow the terms and conditions to take its course.

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This is part of a standard Sales and Purchase Agreement governed by Ministry of Housing, Malaysia.

Default by Purchaser and determination of Agreement (We assume the property is RM1,000,000)

10. (1) If the Purchaser:- (a) subject to subclause (3) below fails to pay any instalments 7 payable under subclause 4(1) in accordance with Third Schedule hereto or any part thereof and any interest payable under Clause 9 for any period in excess of twenty-eight (28) days after its due date;

or (b) commits any breach of or fails to perform or observe any material terms or conditions or covenants contained in this Agreement;

or (c) before payment in full of the purchase price of the said Parcel, commits an act of bankruptcy or enters into any composition or arrangement with his creditors or, being a company, enters into liquidation whether compulsory or voluntary, the Vendor may, subject to subclause (2) hereof, annul the sale of the said Parcel and forthwith terminate this Agreement and in such an event:-

(i) the Vendor shall be entitled to deal with or otherwise dispose of the said Parcel in such manner as the Vendor shall see fit as if this Agreement had not been entered into;

Essentially this is means the Developer can fix any price they want. In a depressing market, the new value of the property would be very much lower than the original price. They would ascertain the new value first then, they will apply the penalty discount structure.
Assuming original price is RM1,000,000, new value is RM 700,000. Penalty discount structure is 20%. The new discounted value is RM560,000. Purchaser to pay differential sum of RM440,000.


(ii) the instalments previously paid by the Purchaser to the Vendor, excluding any interest paid, shall be dealt with and disposed of as follows:-

(a) firstly, all interest calculated in accordance with clause 9 hereof owing and unpaid shall be paid to the Vendor;

(b) secondly, an amount to be forfeited by the Vendor as follows:

(i) where up to fifty per centum (50%) of the purchase price has been paid, an amount equal to ten per centum (10%) of the purchase price; (Purchaser to pay RM 100,000.)

(ii) where more than fifty per centum (50%) of the purchase price has been paid, an amount equal to twenty per centum (20%) of the purchase price; (Purchaser to pay RM200,000)


(c) lastly, the residue thereof shall be refunded to the Purchaser; (It can be negative or positive)

(iii) neither party hereto shall have any further claim against the other for costs, damages, compensation or otherwise hereunder; and

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If the financing is done through banks, the banks would seize the property and attempt to recover their loans. The property do not belong to the purchaser anymore. It belong to the bank. Purchaser lose everything.

The remedial services would include forced sale of the property if it can be sold. If the project cannot be sold cos it is uncompleted, the borrower would be liable personally. If it can be sold, it would be done through auction and bank will recover the differential sum between auction price and loan drawn down from the borrower. Bankruptcy proceedings would commence.

The minute you default, the bank would seize the property first, then only they demand payments from you. Final auction price is anybody guess. Normally the price would be about 40% lower than the original price. And the borrower would have to pay the difference to the bank yet do not own anything.

Important note: The loan is between the purchaser and bank. It has nothing to do with the developer or the property. The property is just the collateral and the means to facilitate the loan.

And we have not started on the legal fees, etc etc. The developer / banks can even claim DIBS fees or discounts from the purchaser.

For sake of discussion, assuming that the purchaser has lots of cash to burn and willing to pay the estimated 50% loss which is would probably not happen but let’s say it did happen. What are the implications of getting a new buyer. Everything can be sold. It is just the price and risks

1. There’s no title deed. Sale can be made via a Deed of Assignment backed by the original S&P of the first buyer and the developer and Power of Attorney given by the first purchaser. This is what we call side line private arrangements. You would need the approval of the developer to do this. Usually developers do not like this arrangements as S&P are stamped and documented. There’s no room for reassignment.

2. And assuming that a new buyer came along and willing to take over the loan repayments. Old buyer signed off all his rights to this new buyer. What happen if new buyer did not pay the loans. Result is original purchaser is liable cos the loan is registered in his name. More so, his name would appear in the national registry of total loan exposure resulting him not able to apply for other loans. Worse, he would be sued by the bank as the loan as he is the original borrower. He is as good as the guarantor for the loan.

Whether to bite the bullet or not, it is entirely up to the purchaser.
Obviously some will say I am wrong, maybe I am, maybe I am not. Go check with the lawyers. :smile:
 

winners

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Purchaser can’t even sell it as the property is not handed over. Technically it is not even registered in his name. No transfer allowed as long as caveats are in place. The master title belong to the developer. Registration only happen when the entire project is completed and names submitted for strata title processing.
In this case, why is it that some China Developers are able to help their clients to flip their properties as mpan12 had claimed and I had also come across such instances myself before.
Yes indeed. It has already happened. It started with Country Garden Danga Bay. I remember I was at the show flat and there were agents swarming all over. They said if I wanted good view, high floor units, he/she had China buyers willing to let go for an extra RM25-50k that I had to pay.

Even if you claim that the flipping buyer may have merely placed a booking fee, but then this is also very much time dependent (usually 2 weeks) before he has to commit to the S&P, or to forfeit his booking fee thereafter. Who will be so stupid to do that for the risk of flipping his property in such a short time frame?

Are these China Developers given additional special privileges?
 
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Tekkun

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In this case, why is it that some China Developers are able to help their clients to flip their properties as mpan12 had claimed and I had also come across such instances myself before.

Are these China Developers given additional special privileges?

Few possibilities, I really don't know. Could be:

1. Loans are not required and therefore the S&P is not stamped, it is transfer booking at deposit taking level for a fee.
2. There's a reassignment clause in the S&P and it is not considered as a standard Government controlled housing S&P Agreement.
3. Malaysian Government controls only housing S&P, commercial ones are out of its jurisdiction.
4. Chinese developers came in as master developers and given freedom space in marketing and selling their properties. I read it somewhere they were even given duty free status for materials used for these projects.
 
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winners

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Few possibilities, I really don't know. Could be:

1. Loans are not required and therefore the S&P is not stamped, it is transfer booking at deposit taking level for a fee.
2. There's a reassignment clause in the S&P and it is not considered as a standard Government controlled housing S&P Agreement.
3. Malaysian Government controls only housing S&P, commercial ones are out of its jurisdiction.
4. Chinese developers came in as master developers and given freedom space in marketing and selling their properties. I read it somewhere they were even given duty free status for materials used for these projects.
That's why Malaysia Boleh!! And the local developers are getting screwed by their own government.

Just to add, when I was at Senibong Cove (er.. Australian developer) last week, the SA told me that she has a unit whose buyer had already purchased a total of 3 units, but is currently letting go 1 of the 3 units. So if I want, she can sell to me that particular unit and will still be considered as a Developer's sale so that I won't be restricted by the RM1m condition.

So, I wonder what is going on? If buyer had only booked the 3 units, definitely would have expired by now and forfeited his deposits. If buyer had already signed the S&P for those 3 units, how then can the Developer still sell to me as a Developer's sale?
 
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Tekkun

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That's why Malaysia Boleh!! And the local developers are getting screwed by their own government.

The local developers are not screwed. They have the best of both world as they sell off plans with minimal finance. It is progressive payments as they build along. Unlike in Australia or in London, the buyers deposit paid is kept at escrow and they get their money only upon full completion of the project.

It is the buyers who are screwed from abandoned projects to low quality finishing and die die have to see through the S&P.
 

Frodo

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Looks like no good way out for those who have committed, die die must hold on to the property; if buyer not willing to move forward, but also can't move backwards!
Let's say buyer default on the purchase somewhere down the road, what is the likely scenario? Will the bank sue the buyer in Singapore, and seize their assets, and sue until bankrupt? By this time buyer will forfeit whatever has been paid to bank, and all is lost hope. But is it really going to be this bad? Is there a better way to get out of this mess before it gets messier? Happy happy go JB to buy a property hoping to make some money, and then skarly end up getting entangled into this legal tussle!
Can some kind soul help to enlighten?
Btw, I don't own any property in JB as of now, just curious to know if one gets into such situation.

I have yet to come to this stage….and hopefully do not have to. But I believe the issue is not just cut and run, but whether one can also afford to cut and run. Because, depending on the individual case, it may entails more than just the loss of what you have already put in, it could also mean you need to have enough additional cash on hand to completely extricate yourself from the situation and walk away. For some maybe they can limp away, others can crawl away...I think for me will die on the spot.
 

Tekkun

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I have yet to come to this stage….and hopefully do not have to. But I believe the issue is not just cut and run, but whether one can also afford to cut and run. Because, depending on the individual case, it may entails more than just the loss of what you have already put in, it could also mean you need to have enough additional cash on hand to completely extricate yourself from the situation and walk away. For some maybe they can limp away, others can crawl away...I think for me will die on the spot.

It is sad already to see so many buyers who got caught.
The last thing is to give them a false hope thinking they can walk away just like that. Even if you have all the money to top up, where are you going to find buyers? It is like stock market where u play on margin. Prices is dropping every minute and you get calls from bankers to top up yet there are no buyers.
 

Tekkun

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That's why Malaysia Boleh!! And the local developers are getting screwed by their own government.

Just to add, when I was at Senibong Cove (er.. Australian developer) last week, the SA told me that she has a unit whose buyer had already purchased a total of 3 units, but is currently letting go 1 of the 3 units. So if I want, she can sell to me that particular unit and will still be considered as a Developer's sale so that I won't be restricted by the RM1m condition.

You can bet it is a unsold Developer unit. Sometimes developers keep some units as strategic units. If it is a resold unit, the buyer would have already got the bank loan and the bank would be keeping the original S&P copy in their vault.
 

winners

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You can bet it is a unsold Developer unit. Sometimes developers keep some units as strategic units. If it is a resold unit, the buyer would have already got the bank loan and the bank would be keeping the original S&P copy in their vault.
I also thought so. Otherwise, she won't commit to me that it will be a Developer's sale. So, I think even if it's for real (her story), the buyer would have already forfeited his booking fee for quite some time already.
 

xebay11

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It is sad already to see so many buyers who got caught.
The last thing is to give them a false hope thinking they can walk away just like that. Even if you have all the money to top up, where are you going to find buyers? It is like stock market where u play on margin. Prices is dropping every minute and you get calls from bankers to top up yet there are no buyers.

So now all of a sudden posts are getting more and more negative.....what took so long? Why was I being slammed and even called to be banned when I was only cautioning people? Now I look at the jam where you cannot back out and cannot sell and risk all being seized by the bank and made bankrupt, I remember you saying that credit ratings are international? Is this true that banks in Malaysia can foreclose on Singapore based properties to make up for the loans? I am curious because I have never been in such a position before and hence no experience.

But whatever it is, the posts now are getting more realistic and no more sunny, balmy and patting themselves on the back and eating cheap satay in Johor.
 

kawan2sgmy

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hahaha, you won't get yourself into such situation lah! You think through alot before taking action, in other words you take calculated risk. You have come so far so good, and lucky star is shinning upon you and noble man is always there if help is needed!

I have yet to come to this stage….and hopefully do not have to. But I believe the issue is not just cut and run, but whether one can also afford to cut and run. Because, depending on the individual case, it may entails more than just the loss of what you have already put in, it could also mean you need to have enough additional cash on hand to completely extricate yourself from the situation and walk away. For some maybe they can limp away, others can crawl away...I think for me will die on the spot.
 

kawan2sgmy

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Although I don't own any property here, but somehow I still like JB. I may come back to buy again, provided my children are in favour of it.

It is sad already to see so many buyers who got caught.
The last thing is to give them a false hope thinking they can walk away just like that. Even if you have all the money to top up, where are you going to find buyers? It is like stock market where u play on margin. Prices is dropping every minute and you get calls from bankers to top up yet there are no buyers.
 

Frodo

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So now all of a sudden posts are getting more and more negative.....what took so long? Why was I being slammed and even called to be banned when I was only cautioning people? Now I look at the jam where you cannot back out and cannot sell and risk all being seized by the bank and made bankrupt, I remember you saying that credit ratings are international? Is this true that banks in Malaysia can foreclose on Singapore based properties to make up for the loans? I am curious because I have never been in such a position before and hence no experience.

But whatever it is, the posts now are getting more realistic and no more sunny, balmy and patting themselves on the back and eating cheap satay in Johor.

It's not the posts getting more negative about JB. In response to suggestions to cut losses and run, Tekkun is telling us that attempting to cut and run could have even more adverse consequences than holding on to the property. One may need to cut more losses first before he can run, but that also depends on whether one has sufficient flesh left to cut.
 

Frodo

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hahaha, you won't get yourself into such situation lah! You think through alot before taking action, in other words you take calculated risk. You have come so far so good, and lucky star is shinning upon you and noble man is always there if help is needed!

Thanks for your well wishes! I really hope what we wish in our plans will come to pass. It has been a good ride so far for us. Believe it or not, it just occurred to me moments ago that back in Singapore we were living in second hand resale HDB and driving a second hand OPC but over in JB it's new property and new car. Yes, we did make some calculated moves but mostly took each step by faith. I can think of many things that could have gone wrong, most critical being unapproved housing loan or a low margin of finance. So I am thankful that we could clear these hurdles as everything needed to work together nicely. Had the bank approved a low margin of finance then I would not be able to raise a bigger downpayment in the time period given. Die there and then liao. It is also the same thing for the condo. If developer give 20% rebate but bank approved less than 80% because I already have first JB house loan…then condo purchase would be aborted. If bank approve only 60% then no way I can come up with RM150K for downpayment.
 
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xebay11

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It's not the posts getting more negative about JB. In response to suggestions to cut losses and run, Tekkun is telling us that attempting to cut and run could have even more adverse consequences than holding on to the property. One may need to cut more losses first before he can run, but that also depends on whether one has sufficient flesh left to cut.

It is becoming more negative as reality bites, now discussion is on how to cut losses and bailout.

Last time Johor property discussions were super optimistic, rental surely can get, prices sure go up....no need and no room to discuss about what happens if it does not.... last time was, impossible to happen.

Ask yourself why is there a need to discuss about whether to hold and worst consequences if cut off, if the market is so positive? Why did such questions even get asked?
 

Tekkun

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So now all of a sudden posts are getting more and more negative.....what took so long? Why was I being slammed and even called to be banned when I was only cautioning people? Now I look at the jam where you cannot back out and cannot sell and risk all being seized by the bank and made bankrupt, I remember you saying that credit ratings are international? Is this true that banks in Malaysia can foreclose on Singapore based properties to make up for the loans? I am curious because I have never been in such a position before and hence no experience.

But whatever it is, the posts now are getting more realistic and no more sunny, balmy and patting themselves on the back and eating cheap satay in Johor.

I am a firm believer of respecting one's decision on their own investments. You don't hear me condemming this or that project. However, when there is a chorus of Cut and Run, I would be very selfish if I do not let you guys of the potential pitfalls. Buta buta some of the buyers here would really stop payments and let the defaults take place. Then it is too late as you often said, pity these investors of their hard earned money.

Banks are not stupid people. If they can lend you money, they will make sure where to find you. Actually would be very surprised Malaysian banks lend money to foreigners on Malaysian properties especially if there's no proof of income in Malaysia. Not too sure of the legal framework but I am sure there is some form of basis of cooperation. Credit ratings is totally different as they are used as basis of credit approvals which is subjective from bank to bank. HDB remained to be off limits as actually the real owners of HDB is the Spore Government. You guys only bought the rights to live in on a leasehold basis.

Banks are only after your money. They are not real estate agents, if given a choice, they just want $$$. There's usually a clause in all loan agreements "Joint and severally guarantee". That means whoever signs it, husband and wife.
 
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Frodo

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It is becoming more negative as reality bites, now discussion is on how to cut losses and bailout.

Last time Johor property discussions were super optimistic, rental surely can get, prices sure go up....no need and no room to discuss about what happens if it does not.... last time was, impossible to happen.

Ask yourself why is there a need to discuss about whether to hold and worst consequences if cut off, if the market is so positive? Why did such questions even get asked?

I don’t think everyone is feeling negative about JB properties though for sure there are those who are. And this is the group of people who are thinking of cut and run. There is a need to discuss the repercussions of cut and run because apparently not everyone is fully apprised of what it really means. At least I don’t. For example, I didn’t know I have to pay back the 20% rebate the developer give off the SPA price. That’s RM150K I need to cough up immediately if I decide to back out. Sure die one. Unless someone with $2.6m don’t mind giving away money to bail me out?:wink: It’s just a mere fraction, chicken feed to him…. but elephant feet to me.:(
 
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