Property News

Tekkun · Jul 25, 2016

You all have a choice. Buy a 800 sq ft condo or buy a Horizon Hills Bungalow in Iskandar 5000 sq ft at the same price. :smile:

It is an unusual occurrence in today's lacklustre private residential market but a condominium launch over the weekend drew a red-hot response from buyers with close to 90 per cent of units sold.Lake Grande, a 710-unit condo along Jurong West Street that is being developed by MCL Land, released 500 units for sale last Saturday.About 87 per cent of these units - 436 in total - were sold at an average price of $1,368 per square foot.Koh Teck Chuan, chief executive of MCL Land, said 83 per cent of the transactions were for the one- and two-bedroom units.Seventeen out of every 20 buyers are Singaporeans.- See more at: http://business.asiaone.com/news/sold-436-units-jurong-west-condo-launch#sthash.4Z2Qb7Hh.dpuf

sgcount · Jul 25, 2016

FHBH12 said:
You can upgrade from HDB to pte properties after MOP, but not the other way round. The rules to own HDB are very strict now.

Many people are still staying in HDB and renting out their pte properties. These people are already paying quite a lot of taxes. This applies to many people staying in JB and renting out their HDB for retirement. There was a discussion a month+ ago on ICA checking on those who travel or stay in JB for long periods of time.

HDB flat owners can own private. But private owners cannot buy new BTO flats. That's what I know. But there are loopholes which I think the govt knows but is not doing anything about it.

For previous private owners, they can still buy resale HDB flats if they sell their private properties. But need to have some time lapse first.

What I feel is, if one already owns private, he should not even be allowed to own or live in a flat whether new or old ones. And those who are earning beyond a certain income should not be qualified to buy a resale flat.

sgcount · Jul 25, 2016

ECboy said:
Wow, you spoke directly to me. No offence but I simply cannot bring myself to pay a "hefty premium" to stay in a 700-800 sqf condo with 2-3 rooms, easily >S$1mil+, HDB? cannot buy, don't have 2 PR's. I would rather suffer inconvenience and move to JB and have tons of choice as a local. In turn, i have much more disposable income, much more breathing space, freedom to travel more, pretty much everything a typical Gen-Y looks for.

You JB boy different.

I always feel those who are from JB but work in SG have the best of both worlds. You earn in SGD but go back home nearby to spend in RM. Can buy a nice big house. If you can get Singapore PR, even better. Got CPF. Our govt loves you.

You are street smart because if you know your way around JB, Singapore is heaven and a piece of cake to move around.

Singaporeans are more pampered and used to the good life in SG. Not all can survive well the ruggedness of Johor and are not as street smart. Also, those with close-knitted families and ties in SG can't easily move over to Johor to live.

Frodo · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
You also have private property in SG?

I was referring to those who own HDB flats and yet allowed to hold private properties.

The more I think about it, the more I feel it's wrong. No wonder HDB flat prices have increased so much. Imagine if in a block of flats, there are many of such high income earners. They can refuse to sell their flats until prices are as high as possible. They have the holding power. Once this becomes the norm, the market rate for the flats follows accordingly and rises.

If one can afford to buy private properties, then there's nothing wrong to ask the owner to first sell away the HDB flat. There is no reason for him or her to keep it and rent it out to earn an income. You want to earn rental income, either buy several private properties (which is justified because you're rich anyway), or you are a commoner who owns a flat, but let out one of your rooms. Or you are staying somewhere else (like Iskandar or overseas) and rent out your whole flat.

HDB flats should be for the commoners to live in and buy affordably. Rental earnings from it is not the priority.

I still hear stories today that many young couples fail BTO flat balloting after 5 tries! Even singles over 35 are not successful in balloting to buy a pathetic 2-room flat. All fully subscribed. Something is wrong.

I'm sure the government is clearly aware of this. But they are not doing anything because it is to their advantage when flat prices increase. But woe to the poor commoners who now may have to take a lifetime of loan to buy a small 4-room flat.

LOL! I wish I can own a private property in SG! No I don't. Because if I had, I won't be in this forum liao. LOL! Anyway, I only have one HDB in Singapore that is fully rented out. But if possible I would have loved to own a private property in SG, be it as investment or personal use, in addition to having an HDB. Part of wealth accumulation aspiration mah. But this is having HDB first, followed by private property, as allowed under HDB which I think is a fair policy. But note that this means the person must hold to this HDB for life, because the moment he sells or attempt to buy another, he has to say good bye to all private properties, by right lah. By left, just don't get caught!

Zelphon · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
You also have private property in SG?

I was referring to those who own HDB flats and yet allowed to hold private properties.

I still hear stories today that many young couples fail BTO flat balloting after 5 tries! Even singles over 35 are not successful in balloting to buy a pathetic 2-room flat. All fully subscribed. Something is wrong.

I'm sure the government is clearly aware of this. But they are not doing anything because it is to their advantage when flat prices increase. But woe to the poor commoners who now may have to take a lifetime of loan to buy a small 4-room flat.

If you think from the perspective from the Government..
This is the best way to enslave the citizenry via debts...
Money from BTO.. HDB.. Private Lands Sales.. etc... All goes into reserve or Temasek or GIC or various GLCs...
In addition, most properties in SG are 99 years leasehold..
Thus ensuring a steady supply of citizens held to slavery by debts because it is very hard for the common people to enrich their next generations since almost nothing can be passed down..

Why do you think almost all the nations in the world want to learn from PAP government??
Many countries sent their officials to study in LKY School of Public Policy...

Simple reason is PAP is the no.1 government in the world for milking so much money from citizens with zero riots..

Frodo · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
You JB boy different.

I always feel those who are from JB but work in SG have the best of both worlds. You earn in SGD but go back home nearby to spend in RM. Can buy a nice big house. If you can get Singapore PR, even better. Got CPF. Our govt loves you.

You are street smart because if you know your way around JB, Singapore is heaven and a piece of cake to move around.

Singaporeans are more pampered and used to the good life in SG. Not all can survive well the ruggedness of Johor and are not as street smart. Also, those with close-knitted families and ties in SG can't easily move over to Johor to live.

Actually I think Singaporeans are TOO USED to good life in SG that they do not mind the fact that increasingly things are getting more costly and beyond rich. We become the proverbial frog in the pot that is slowly being cooked alive. Actually in my view it is really do-able to move to JB and work in SG, it will certainly call for adjustments, and not everyone will find it their cup of tea. But I also think that perhaps for some people they have blown up the difficulties too much such that they tell themselves it cannot be done. I used to think like that, but when circumstances sort of "forced" us to move, we found out that, "hey not so bad leh". But of course my family situation is different from yours.

sgcount · Jul 25, 2016

Tekkun said:
You all have a choice. Buy a 800 sq ft condo or buy a Horizon Hills Bungalow in Iskandar 5000 sq ft at the same price. It is an unusual occurrence in today's lacklustre private residential market but a condominium launch over the weekend drew a red-hot response from buyers with close to 90 per cent of units sold.Lake Grande, a 710-unit condo along Jurong West Street that is being developed by MCL Land, released 500 units for sale last Saturday.About 87 per cent of these units - 436 in total - were sold at an average price of $1,368 per square foot.Koh Teck Chuan, chief executive of MCL Land, said 83 per cent of the transactions were for the one- and two-bedroom units.Seventeen out of every 20 buyers are Singaporeans.- See more at: http://business.asiaone.com/news/sold-436-units-jurong-west-condo-launch#sthash.4Z2Qb7Hh.dpuf

This shows

1. Singaporeans are blardy rich.
2. Investors are still bullish and confident about Singapore.
3. The SG govt will not remove the cooling measures.
4. Herd mentality plays a strong part in property buying. For me, I think the properties are all overpriced. But only time can tell whether or not they've made the right decision.

SG condos these days are not respectable to stay or live inside due to the small sizes. At tiny 400+ sq ft and 500+sq ft for 1 and 2-bedroom respectively, how is a condo considered an "upgrade" from a HDB flat? It's just an investment entity, like stocks and gold. Singaporeans are buying hoping to let the foreign tenants stay and earn rental. Then years later, they hope to sell for capital appreciation.

But with an oversupply and tightening of the foreign labour, I'm not sure if all the buyers can hold their assets for long. Rents will be depressed and tenants hard to find. Once there is a crisis or recession, I think many will start to dump their properties for cheap.

FHBH12 · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
HDB flat owners can own private. But private owners cannot buy new BTO flats. That's what I know. But there are loopholes which I think the govt knows but is not doing anything about it.

For previous private owners, they can still buy resale HDB flats if they sell their private properties. But need to have some time lapse first.

What I feel is, if one already owns private, he should not even be allowed to own or live in a flat whether new or old ones. And those who are earning beyond a certain income should not be qualified to buy a resale flat.

Now HDBs are oversupplied and they will permanently be in oversupplied state due to recent policies. If a new rule requires existing HDB owners with pte properties to sell their HDBs, prices will correct badly, thus harming other owners as well. I hope you are not wishing for this to happen. I don't own a HDB by the way.

sgcount · Jul 25, 2016

Frodo said:
Actually I think Singaporeans are TOO USED to good life in SG that they do not mind the fact that increasingly things are getting more costly and beyond rich. We become the proverbial frog in the pot that is slowly being cooked alive. Actually in my view it is really do-able to move to JB and work in SG, it will certainly call for adjustments, and not everyone will find it their cup of tea. But I also think that perhaps for some people they have blown up the difficulties too much such that they tell themselves it cannot be done. I used to think like that, but when circumstances sort of "forced" us to move, we found out that, "hey not so bad leh". But of course my family situation is different from yours.

Move to JB but work in SG is do-able only because of your specific situation mah.... Cos your wife not working right?

For those with husband and wife working, kids already well-settled in SG schools, it's extremely tough to change everything overnight. Even if you see the point, your family members may not. For eg, I would never let my kids suffer by waking up early in the morning, and rush back to beat the traffic just so we can all live in JB. It's also hard for everyone to coordinate their timing on what time they can get out of SG into Johor.

For my work, I do have last min stay backs in the evenings sometimes. I can't tell my boss, sorry it's 5pm, I need to beat the traffic and just walk out like that! If I leave work only at 7pm, that good luck to me cos I'll be stuck in the jam for how long?! And I have to be at work on the dot. Can't be too late in case of jams.

Then weekends there could be family time together, planned activities in SG where all our friends and relatives are.

I'm also too used to the convenience here. Need bread? Need a good cup of coffee with chit-chat with my friend? Just walk 5 minutes from my home. Need supper? Just walk also. Even if further away, MRT is just a few stops away. Need computer stuffs? Head down to Funan or Sim Lim. If you ask me to find my way around for those stuffs in JB, I'd be lost like a kid!

But ya... if you can work it out to live in Johor, then that's best la.

sgcount · Jul 25, 2016

FHBH12 said:
Now HDBs are oversupplied and they will permanently be in oversupplied state due to recent policies. If a new rule requires existing HDB owners with pte properties to sell their HDBs, prices will correct badly, thus harming other owners as well. I hope you are not wishing for this to happen. I don't own a HDB by the way.

No matter how one gets into the situation, I feel someone who is already holding on to a private property should not be buying or staying in a HDB flat. I don't know how they end up in this scenario. I understand there are loopholes. But it just doesn't make sense that the super rich can take up space in flats which are meant for commoners.

I'm not biased against the rich if the govt got the policies right. But like I said, till today, I still hear my friends telling me there are cases of new couples not successful in their BTO bidding after 5 times! And resale flats could go up to $800,900k. The market is no longer well-controlled by the govt. At those high prices, obviously they are bought by the rich. If a common family only earns $8-10k combined income a month, how to afford them?

If private property owners still want to keep their HDB flats or vice versa, then perhaps the govt should also look at their earnings. Those above certain level cannot qualify. It's just feel wrong that a multi-millionaire is staying in a flat, while his landed house in say Bukit Timah is being rented out for >S$10 a month. Or he is living in Orchard Road penthouse and has a HDB flat being rented out. While at the same time, the poor couple earning a combined $6k a month cannot even find a suitable,affordable flat to live in!

Tekkun · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
This shows

1. Singaporeans are blardy rich.
2. Investors are still bullish and confident about Singapore.
3. The SG govt will not remove the cooling measures.
4. Herd mentality plays a strong part in property buying. For me, I think the properties are all overpriced. But only time can tell whether or not they've made the right decision.

SG condos these days are not respectable to stay or live inside due to the small sizes. At tiny 400+ sq ft and 500+sq ft for 1 and 2-bedroom respectively, how is a condo considered an "upgrade" from a HDB flat? It's just an investment entity, like stocks and gold. Singaporeans are buying hoping to let the foreign tenants stay and earn rental. Then years later, they hope to sell for capital appreciation.

But with an oversupply and tightening of the foreign labour, I'm not sure if all the buyers can hold their assets for long. Rents will be depressed and tenants hard to find. Once there is a crisis or recession, I think many will start to dump their properties for cheap.

That's why whenever Singaporeans say this and that expensive and cannot afford, take that with a pinch of salt. They never say they are poor. They can afford it but think it is expensive and not worth paying. So I think high prices is there to stay in Singapore.

As for Iskandar, the developers saw that is the mentality of Singaporeans. That's why the milking started.

FHBH12 · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
No matter how one gets into the situation, I feel someone who is already holding on to a private property should not be buying or staying in a HDB flat. I don't know how they end up in this scenario. I understand there are loopholes. But it just doesn't make sense that the super rich can take up space in flats which are meant for commoners.

I'm not biased against the rich if the govt got the policies right. But like I said, till today, I still hear my friends telling me there are cases of new couples not successful in their BTO bidding after 5 times! And resale flats could go up to $800,900k. The market is no longer well-controlled by the govt. At those high prices, obviously they are bought by the rich. If a common family only earns $8-10k combined income a month, how to afford them?

If private property owners still want to keep their HDB flats or vice versa, then perhaps the govt should also look at their earnings. Those above certain level cannot qualify. It's just feel wrong that a multi-millionaire is staying in a flat, while his landed house in say Bukit Timah is being rented out for >S$10 a month. Or he is living in Orchard Road penthouse and has a HDB flat being rented out. While at the same time, the poor couple earning a combined $6k a month cannot even find a suitable,affordable flat to live in!

It may not be correct to penalise people who get rich later but still prefer to stay in their own HDB that they paid for like the rest. One day you may belong to this group too with your Medini condo.

Frodo · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
Move to JB but work in SG is do-able only because of your specific situation mah.... Cos your wife not working right?

For those with husband and wife working, kids already well-settled in SG schools, it's extremely tough to change everything overnight. Even if you see the point, your family members may not. For eg, I would never let my kids suffer by waking up early in the morning, and rush back to beat the traffic just so we can all live in JB. It's also hard for everyone to coordinate their timing on what time they can get out of SG into Johor.

For my work, I do have last min stay backs in the evenings sometimes. I can't tell my boss, sorry it's 5pm, I need to beat the traffic and just walk out like that! If I leave work only at 7pm, that good luck to me cos I'll be stuck in the jam for how long?! And I have to be at work on the dot. Can't be too late in case of jams.

Then weekends there could be family time together, planned activities in SG where all our friends and relatives are.

I'm also too used to the convenience here. Need bread? Need a good cup of coffee with chit-chat with my friend? Just walk 5 minutes from my home. Need supper? Just walk also. Even if further away, MRT is just a few stops away. Need computer stuffs? Head down to Funan or Sim Lim. If you ask me to find my way around for those stuffs in JB, I'd be lost like a kid!

But ya... if you can work it out to live in Johor, then that's best la.

Yes, my family situation made it easier for us to move over to JB to live while I am the only one doing the daily commutes to work in SG. In a way it was ideal, though we did not plan for it this way. Maybe for you this is not the right time. But maybe for others it could be. Maybe even thinking outside the box may help, as in having kids educated in JB. It does not always need to be in expensive international schools. My work is not always 9 to 5 either. But if I happen to come for work late, then I just go home later. My superiors understand my situation. And if you do not drive into JB and take public transport, having the MACS will ease your clearance. You won't get stuck in jams as bad as cars....or bikes. Yes, the convenience in Singapore is somewhat unbeatable. So there is a trade-off. For us, we choose to live in a community very near to amenities, even just a 5min walk away to basic stuff. So enclave living was out for us. I suppose what I am trying to say is that, there are ways to make things more workable if one wants to live in JB. Not as good as Singapore but not that bad either, the middle ground.

Frodo · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
No matter how one gets into the situation, I feel someone who is already holding on to a private property should not be buying or staying in a HDB flat. I don't know how they end up in this scenario. I understand there are loopholes. But it just doesn't make sense that the super rich can take up space in flats which are meant for commoners.

I'm not biased against the rich if the govt got the policies right. But like I said, till today, I still hear my friends telling me there are cases of new couples not successful in their BTO bidding after 5 times! And resale flats could go up to $800,900k. The market is no longer well-controlled by the govt. At those high prices, obviously they are bought by the rich. If a common family only earns $8-10k combined income a month, how to afford them?

If private property owners still want to keep their HDB flats or vice versa, then perhaps the govt should also look at their earnings. Those above certain level cannot qualify. It's just feel wrong that a multi-millionaire is staying in a flat, while his landed house in say Bukit Timah is being rented out for >S$10 a month. Or he is living in Orchard Road penthouse and has a HDB flat being rented out. While at the same time, the poor couple earning a combined $6k a month cannot even find a suitable,affordable flat to live in!

My view is that HDB prices have reached a point of no return, it will just be one way upwards trend. Baring a few exceptions, the profit margin from selling away the BTO five years later may just be getting smaller and smaller. Having a HDB and then later add another private property on top of that, is in my view a rather fair policy. It is not as though one can have multiple HDB units under his name, but just one. It is also fair that every Singaporean can own a HDB. The current situation where even married couples cannot get their units is an allocation issue driven by policy, even legacy. The govt has to sort it out in a more equitable manner, though the FT policy probably aggravates it, what with the cash-rich PRCs coming in large numbers.

rotikok · Jul 25, 2016

xebay11 said:
There is a rm1 million restriction to contend with for foreigners, did you factor that in?

Already factor that in, very little local who work locally will stay there anyway. So is purely foreigners playground, RM1m is entry price for the ease to stay close to sg.

sgcount said:
What about those properties "near" to the HSR, such as Puteri Harbour, Medini, maybe, Ledang and HH? I think they are considered near based on driving distance.

if want to be early bird, can consider those by Sunway or UEM Sunrise now?

Again, no answer for that question. How close is uem n sunway, 5 min cycling can arrive? 5 min driving distance vacant agri land can consider, now calling for rm30-40 psf, expensive for agri land but potential is high. Again, land play is for local and not for noob nor rookie, buying a industrial factory is much easier than buying land, so to say. What is sure is that, landed G&G in gelang patah area have space to grow in value, in 5 yrs time can see the different.

rotikok · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
These days, study so much also useless. I see those in their 20s trying hard to get their post-grad or PhDs... come out earn only $3.5-4k a month and must face many unreasonable superiors. Why waste time study so much? Those less educated ones start business, buy properties, then earn millions.

Economy is like that, they reward those that are adventurous. Study high level very easy de, nowadays parent will fork out money to let their child study high high, in that sense, studying is staying in comfort zone. When you are the few able to do that, economy reward you. When everyone can, everyone stay in comfort zone, economy will not reward you. Personally im from rich background, if i want to be richer, i would not bother to study phd, waste of time. i study bcoz for self enrichment. Business idea not difficult to think but how u dare and capable to proceed? i like a foreign japanese fast food chains' food, name i dont want to disclose. when i brought up the idea, the higher educated all not dare, a bit money comfort ady, why risk. thos bo tak chek de, willing to put their everything to it, nothing to lose. So you see economy will reward who?

Frodo said:
If I am not wrong, maybe those condos near CIQ could already be close to RM1 million, if not already exceeded? Good location condos will command a premium as there is limited land in such places compared to other places where there's still lots of trees and plantations.

Not long ago got a piece of few acres land behind ciq selling for rm30+ psf but leasehold and have 50-70+yrs (exact forget liao). When i have option to invest and the magnitude of earning can be many fold, i wouldnt even bother to look at condo. Economy reward thing that not many ppl can and know how to do. Everyone know how to buy condo, price even up, want to earn big big also cannot.

sgcount · Jul 25, 2016

Tekkun said:
That's why whenever Singaporeans say this and that expensive and cannot afford, take that with a pinch of salt. They never say they are poor. They can afford it but think it is expensive and not worth paying. So I think high prices is there to stay in Singapore.

As for Iskandar, the developers saw that is the mentality of Singaporeans. That's why the milking started.

Yup. Singaporeans are generally rich for a tiny SE Asian country. But they feel poor because a lot of their wealth is locked up in their properties and CPF.

I think Singaporeans are generally asset rich but cash poor. They are tied down by too much loans and bills to pay. Not many can survive long without a job.

rotikok · Jul 25, 2016

Frodo said:
Supposedly in Apr 2018, if on time. Yes, on MY bank loan. Our first thought when buying it was "this is a low entry opportunity to increase asset base, a chance that doesn't present itself all the time to us". As such, we are happy to keep it for personal use or to sell it if the price is right. Because our current HDB rental can just nice nice cover both JB properties' mortgage (when the condo one kicks in in 2018), we are slightly less stressed...cannot say no stress lah....

Can refinance into Sgd denominated loan? Next time if Rm up or sgd drop, you will have less burden, provided you have sgd income, less exchange rate risk.

sgcount said:
You JB boy different.

I always feel those who are from JB but work in SG have the best of both worlds. You earn in SGD but go back home nearby to spend in RM. Can buy a nice big house. If you can get Singapore PR, even better. Got CPF. Our govt loves you.

You are street smart because if you know your way around JB, Singapore is heaven and a piece of cake to move around.

Singaporeans are more pampered and used to the good life in SG. Not all can survive well the ruggedness of Johor and are not as street smart. Also, those with close-knitted families and ties in SG can't easily move over to Johor to live.

i can understand, not that singaporean not willing to relocate, but is really hard unless the public transport aspects improve. Like not every northern state malaysian want to work in malaysia live in thai border...since 1.no major city 2. terror threat 3.inconvenient. If phuket just above perlis, got mrt or brt, then will be totally diff story.

sgcount · Jul 25, 2016

FHBH12 said:
It may not be correct to penalise people who get rich later but still prefer to stay in their own HDB that they paid for like the rest. One day you may belong to this group too with your Medini condo.

Yes, I know what you mean by that. I also agree. But because the SG govt has allowed HDB flat prices to go out of control, the subsequent policies will naturally also have to take into account the issue of owning a flat and private property at the same time.

Not everyone started out owning HDB flat and later became richer then buy a private property. I take issue more with the rich ones who are allowed to buy resale flats. Perhaps they need to restrict this based on income level also.

When the govt opened the floodgates to immigrants coming to SG, many snapped up flats, be it BTO or resale ones. I've heard of cases where they plonked down S$600k in pure cash to buy flats. With the lack of BTO flats, naturally this has caused flat prices to increase steeply back in 2007 to 2011.

The SG govt was defiant despite the unhappiness of the citizens. Still insisted flats were "affordable". Thank goodness they lost more votes in GE2011 and they decided to wake up and put their greed aside. The situation could have been worse.

Frodo · Jul 25, 2016

sgcount said:
Yes, I know what you mean by that. I also agree. But because the SG govt has allowed HDB flat prices to go out of control, the subsequent policies will naturally also have to take into account the issue of owning a flat and private property at the same time.

Not everyone started out owning HDB flat and later became richer then buy a private property. I take issue more with the rich ones who are allowed to buy resale flats. Perhaps they need to restrict this based on income level also.

When the govt opened the floodgates to immigrants coming to SG, many snapped up flats, be it BTO or resale ones. I've heard of cases where they plonked down S$600k in pure cash to buy flats. With the lack of BTO flats, naturally this has caused flat prices to increase steeply back in 2007 to 2011.

The SG govt was defiant despite the unhappiness of the citizens. Still insisted flats were "affordable". Thank goodness they lost more votes in GE2011 and they decided to wake up and put their greed aside. The situation could have been worse.

But the policy is that the rich people can only buy HDB if they do not own any private properties. But of course there are loopholes to go around it. A million dollar man (I was tempted to say 2.6million dollar man :biggrin:

) can easily set up a company to buy a private property and then buy a HDB flat in his own name. It would be hard to put an income cap on resale properties since the price has no limit.

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