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What do you think of Japan's militarization plans?

Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Please check my posts. Right from the start, I stated that the KMT fought the Japanese more. And did I say the CCP fought the Japanese heroically?

One reason most of the fighting was by the KMT was because the Japanese were attacking the important territories which were all controlled by the KMT.
"Resistance to the Japanese fell primarily on the Kuomintang because the Communists were in the remote areas of northwestern China. Also neither Chiang or Mao wanted to weaken their forced by fighting pitched battles with the Japanese. The major engagements were largely between the Japanese and the Nationalists. This was largely because the Nationalists (KMT) conrolled the most valuable areas of China that the Japanese coveted."
http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cam...na/w2c-cr.html

So everything Chiang and his "allies" said were the absolute truth?
Note that Stalin hated Mao. And after the war, the Japanese were very grateful to Chiang because his generosity to the returning Japanese troops - to the extent of giving each Japanese soldier a sack of rice.

In the Xi'an incident of 1936, Chiang was forced at gun point to unite with the CCP to fight the Japanese. The whole world and the more importantly the Chinese people knew about this. Do you think the CCP could avoid fighting the Japanese totally?


your point was the KMT fought the Japanese more. my point was the CCP evaded the Japanese for close to 8 years and rarely fought a decent war. apparently. the CCP attacked Nationalist troops and colluded with the Japanese on occasions. that was our differences. note* even Edgar Snow, one of the biggest CCP cocksucker wrote in his book that CCP did limited fighting during the war. the CCP only fought one decent war in 8 years, that was Battle of Pingxingguan in 1937.

it was China’s blessing that the KMT and most of its aligned Warlords were selfless patriots during the war unlike the selfish CCP.

regarding the CCP wayang war. the five sides ( KMT, former CCP, US, Russian, Japan ) versions actually can corroborate each other stories. but you believe that CCP one sided version was closer to the truth ?

there were stories of the CCP wayang war from the ordinary people. Dr Lin Yutang and Father Raymond J.De.Jaegher obtained first and second hand accounts of CCP atrocities from the Chinese people who had seen and experienced it for themselves. J.De.Jaegher was an eye-witness to the CCP atrocities.

“The enemy within” from J.De.Jaegher
“Vigil of a Nation” from Lin Yutang

Dr Lin Yutang was a CCP sympathizer during the early days of the war.



Haha, and you believe what Chiang said? Anybody in his shoes would say the same thing. He was under pressure from all sides to fight the Japanese: from the Chinese people and from his own generals (yes, some probably for selfish reasons because they were warlords and lost their territories to the Japanese). Yes, it was possible that Chiang really meant what he said. But would anybody be confident that he could get back all the territories taken by the Japanese after beating the CCP?

Chiang said that obviously to appease the people. But it was probably too late. If the Xi'an incident was indeed masterminded by the CCP, then it was a master stroke because in a single stroke, it painted the picture that the CCP was the one who wanted to unite to fight the Japs, and that Chiang had to be coerced to do it. The CCP knew how to 得民心 (of course we all know this is all politics).

Chiang wanted to wait until China was stronger. But you yourself said the Japanese wanted to attack before China could become stronger.

Chiang didn’t wayang when he talked about the extensive preparation work needed for the war of attrition. he did it from 1931 to 1937. i could list out many things that he did. today. the ROC and PRC historians jointly agreed that Chiang’s war of attrition strategy was correct. China would be slaughtered by the Japanese if full war happened in 1931, not 1937.



That's a joke. You are contradicting yourself here again. You said earlier that the Japanese had by 1936 concluded that it was now or never to attack China. You also agree that the anti-China faction had been the dominant faction in Japan, and they had been making plans to attack China for a long time.

So if person B had already planned for a long time to kill person C, how could you accuse of anybody else of instigating the killing.

Sure you can say the CCP made it easier for the Japanese to attack China. This is absolutely true because disunity is weakness. Japanese was able to attack China because the Chinese were fighting amongst themselves. Why don't you put the blame on KMT for not making peace with the CCP earlier?

You also said "the CCP was indirectly responsible for 9/18". "Indirectly Responsible" and "Instigate" are strong words.

To say that the CCP was indirectly responsible for the war because its sabotaging of Japanese operations weakened the already weak pro-China faction in Japan is twisted logic. You have to prove that the CCP was deliberately provoking a full scale Japanese war before you can assign any blame to it. Even in the 7/7 incident, you thought that the CCP only wanted to provoke a "local" war - although your contention was CCP planned to get the Japanese to start a full war.

Going by your logic,
we could say Chiang Kai Shek was indirectly responsible for the war because he broke up the KMT-CCP alliance in 1927, causing the civil war, weakening China and therefore making it easy for Japan to attack.

Last but not least, we could say God was indirectly responsible for the war because .... I will leave this to you since you are so good at this kind of thing.


there was nothing that contained contradiction. the Japanese made plans for the future invasion of China. whether there would be an invasion of China or not ? it depended on circumstances.

even if person B wanted to kill person C all along. person A still instigate B to kill C. are you suggesting that in a court of law, even if A was proven to has instigated B to kill C. A will not be found guilty because B had shown intentions to kill C all along ?

i shall write a bit about 7/7 story later. i have mentioned earlier. there were no solid evidences, only circumstantial and corroborating evidences of a CCP conspiracy in 7/7.

it was understandable why the KMT and CCP didn’t make peace. can't force these two sides with totally different ideologies to amalgamate together whatever. but during the Sino-Japanese war. both sides should cooperate to fight against the Japanese invaders. the KMT-CCP wartime cooperation was for appearance sake only. it was fine too if both sides can fight their own battles against the Japanese. but the problem was both sides actually fought irregular skirmishes with each other throughout the war. the CCP started the skirmishes 95% of the time.

the Wannan incident was the last straw that ended any real KMT-CCP united front. the KMT and CCP had their own versions of the story. both sides claimed the other side was at fault first.

according to the villagers eyewitness: the CCP troops kept firing at the KMT troops for a long time. the KMT kept enduring it until they can't bear it any longer and returned fire. ( 谁是新中国 by 辛灏年)

the consequences of the Central Plains War would be 9/18. the CCP moles within the Nationalist coalition provoked the Central Plains War. so the CCP were indirectly responsible for 9/18. this is totally logical.

your analogy or logic were way off the mark.
 
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Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
For your information , Yasukuni did not only hold war criminals , The shrine is not only for soldiers but for anyone who died on behalf of the Emperor of Japan. As such there are relief workers, factory workers, citizens and those not of Japanese ethnicity such as Taiwanese and Koreans who served Japan . So do you think it's wrong to pay respect to those people ? If your son is a murderer and is hanged , do you pay respect to your own son ? What if someone comes to hour house and tell you , you cannot pay respect to your son ? BY the way those relief workers die for your country isn't it ok to pay respect to them ? Do not forget many Japanese People wants their government to pay respect to those who die for their country . Sometimes You must look through things in a different lens . Who care about German if they did or did not pay respect to their soldiers . Japan and German have different religions and different culture so you can't compare them .

I have often thought about the number of apologies historically as well, and I have looked over that Wikipedia page several times after discussions in which Chinese friends told me that Japan had never apologized or that Japan’s apologies had never been sincere. Perhaps I should just print out that list and keep the paper in my wallet so that the next time I am told about the lack of Japanese apologies I can just cite some specific facts. Hatred for the Japanese are being taught in Korean school too .

Many atrocities have been committed by many countries over the centuries. It is not acceptable to smear people and then try to gloss over these smears by claiming their objections are a “technicality”, regardless of what other crimes they may have committed.

your reasoning is quite valid. various Japanese PM went to the Yasukuni Shrine to pay respect to the rest of dead soldiers, not the war criminals. nobody has a photograph of some PM bowing and praying to these war criminal, no PM come out saying i knelt down and paid respect to these war criminal. right ? :wink: btw the war criminals were divided into A,B and C class. so PM and Emperor cannot pray to all classes of criminals ? Cabinet ministers, MPs, Mayors or Japanese civilians can go there and pray to any dead inside ? actually. PM Shinzo Abe can go and sleep in Yasukuni Shrine everyday after work. he happy. can already. :biggrin:

various Japanese politicians including past prime ministers and emperor had apologized or expressed regrets to China for the war aggression. but the Chinese people believe that the Japanese were not sincere in its apologizes.
the problem is. today, this Japanese politician representing the government apologizes to China for the war . tomorrow some Japanese politicians with some historians could have a press conference, asserting that there was no Nanking Massacre and the Japanese troops never committed this or that war atrocities in China during the war. the Chinese were of course angered by it. it made the previous statement of apologizes by various Japanese leaders meaningless and superfluous.

it usually happens. before the Japanese elections. some Japanese politicians will come out denying the war atrocities to win the right wing nationalist groups votes. the Chinese media will get wind of it. Chinese people start to KPKB. sometimes it became big news. Japan is a free society. people can say anything they want. but it is truly regrettable to see some Japanese politicians stirring up the old war issues again and again for their political gains at the expenses of China-Japan relations.
 

moolightaffairs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
anyone who defend jap is jap cock sucker, not only drifter. its not about letting go, its about blurring the line of right and wrong. jap never have a proper and official apology issue. i am feeling ashamed by all the Chinese here defending for jap atrocious cruelties done to their not so distance forefathers and relatives. traitors and 走狗. all look like those traitors in those old show, help jap killing own Chinese people. i think when jap start to invade other countries, all these Chinese defending jap on the net will jap in and help jap as 走狗. feeling shamed and sad for their families, especially their parents and their relatives who were tortured and killed by the jap.
 
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moolightaffairs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
to all the traitors here. got 4 word for all of you. go home ask your father or uncles what these 4 words mean.

民族大义!

 
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PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
your reasoning is quite valid. various Japanese PM went to the Yasukuni Shrine to pay respect to the rest of dead soldiers, not the war criminals. nobody has a photograph of some PM bowing and praying to these war criminal, no PM come out saying i knelt down and paid respect to these war criminal. right ? :wink: btw the war criminals were divided into A,B and C class. so PM and Emperor cannot pray to all classes of criminals ? Cabinet ministers, MPs, Mayors or Japanese civilians can go there and pray to any dead inside ? actually. PM Shinzo Abe can go and sleep in Yasukuni Shrine everyday after work. he happy. can already. :biggrin:

various Japanese politicians including past prime ministers and emperor had apologized or expressed regrets to China for the war aggression. but the Chinese people believe that the Japanese were not sincere in its apologizes.
the problem is. today, this Japanese politician representing the government apologizes to China for the war . tomorrow some Japanese politicians with some historians could have a press conference, asserting that there was no Nanking Massacre and the Japanese troops never committed this or that war atrocities in China during the war. the Chinese were of course angered by it. it made the previous statement of apologizes by various Japanese leaders meaningless and superfluous.

it usually happens. before the Japanese elections. some Japanese politicians will come out denying the war atrocities to win the right wing nationalist groups votes. the Chinese media will get wind of it. Chinese people start to KPKB. sometimes it became big news. Japan is a free society. people can say anything they want. but it is truly regrettable to see some Japanese politicians stirring up the old war issues again and again for their political gains at the expenses of China-Japan relations.



Japan has repeatedly attempted to apologize for its wartime aggression. But Japan’s attempted apologies, China claims, have so far been unsatisfactory or insincere :cool:. In 1972, 1995, and in 2001, various Japanese prime ministers have issued what they considered to be a valid apology. Each time, China rejected the statement as a valid apology for one or more of three reasons: 1) the lack of the explicit mention of the word “apology,” 2) the lack of the explicit mention of China as the victim of Japanese aggression, and 3) the apology was only stated in a speech, but not written down in an official document. :eek:

In 1995, on the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, the Government of Japan expressed its resolution through the statement by the Prime Minister, which states that during a certain period in the past, Japan’s conduct caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, including China, and the Prime Minister expressed his feeling of deep remorse and stated his heartfelt apology, while giving his word to make efforts for peace.
Perhaps what China wanted was to be singled out as the only country that suffered Japanese aggression, instead of being grouped amongst the “many countries.” :biggrin:

Over the last four decades, Japan has been rewording and reissuing statements in attempt to meet China’s criteria for a “valid” apology. “Japan does want to fully express its apologies to China,” one of my japanese friend father said to me once, “And we have been trying to do so. It’s just that every time we try, China seems to come up with new criteria, new definitions. If they truly do want to let us apologize and move on, why not tell us all the criteria from the beginning? It just feels like China is making up reasons to reject our apologies on purpose.” :mad:


Fatigue , this is what haunts Japan’s diplomatic relation with China. Many Japanese feel exhausted trying to satisfy China’s seemingly unending demands, and this fatigue also stems from the perception among many Japanese that China refuses to recognize, let alone show gratitude toward, Japan’s Official Development Assistance. In the “Joint Communiqués Between Japan and China” signed by Prime Minister Tanaka and Chairman Mao in 1972, “the Government of the People’s Republic of China declares that in the interest of the friendship between the Chinese and the Japanese peoples, it renounces its demand for war reparation from Japan.” Nevertheless, according to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan, from 1979 to 2006, Japan loaned US$40 billion to China in the form of ODA (Official Development Assistance), of which a very small percentage, US$1.8 million, comprised pure donations. Beijing International Airport, Shanghai Pudong Airport, and the Beijing subway system were all constructed with the help of Japanese ODA. Yet because the Chinese government refuses to publicize this fact, most Chinese citizens are under the impression that Japan has provided little, if any, financial aid to China.:*:
Granted, no amount of money could ever compensate wartime horrors such as the Rape of Nanking. And ODA is different from war reparation; it is, after all, a loan. But it is important to note that Japan is not trying to add insult to injury by withholding reparations. Japanese aid takes the form of ODA because China willingly renounced its claims to war reparations , something of which most Chinese citizens are also unaware. Over the years, Japan became embittered and fatigued as its assistance went unrecognized. “No matter how much we help China, China will simply take it for granted and continue to demand more,” many Japanese citizens complained. “Even Chinese citizens don’t even know that they are receiving aid from Japan. Why should Japan continue to send aid to China if they show absolutely no sign of gratitude :mad: ?” Finally, in 2007, Japan ended the ODA program to China.

The history of China-Japan relations is more complex than most Chinese or Japanese people realize; it is not an issue that can be solved with a single apology. Yet there is too little information, and too little dialogue about it. How many Chinese people know about Japan’s attempted apologies to China? (New York Times’ Chinese-language site is now blocked in China.) How many Chinese people know about the US$40 billion that Japan has sent to China? :cool:By the way , most Japanese thinks that their politicans are useless . How many times japan have changed their PM ? :wink:
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
anyone who defend jap is jap cock sucker, not only drifter. its not about letting go, its about blurring the line of right and wrong. jap never have a proper and official apology issue. i am feeling ashamed by all the Chinese here defending for jap atrocious cruelties done to their not so distance forefathers and relatives. traitors and 走狗. all look like those traitors in those old show, help jap killing own Chinese people. i think when jap start to invade other countries, all these Chinese defending jap on the net will jap in and help jap as 走狗. feeling shamed and sad for their families, especially their parents and their relatives who were tortured and killed by the jap.

jap never have a proper and official apology issue ? Check my post #305 . don't behave like a ah tiong .

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-821196-1-1.html


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90883/8097125.html
 
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PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
How many times must the Japanese apologize to those ah tiong ? Please go and google !!!
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Has Japan really done nothing for China and Korea after the war? Do the Japanese still have to apologize and make compensations for incidents which occurred 60 years ago? While conducting research, I found that Japan has already fulfilled its responsibilities in making reparations for its wartime acts. Therefore, I claim that no extra apology and compensation is needed.
Firstly, Japan does not have the responsibility to make anymore compensations, since it had already done so under the Treaty of San Francisco (8th September, 1951), article 14 , which clearly specified Japan’s responsibilities. Article 14, clause 1 to clause 2-I, spelled out the scope of the compensation that Japan owed (364.3 billion yen in reparations and 340.7 billion yen in financial aid), and Japan completed these financial commitments in 1977 . Furthermore, Article 14 clause 2-II-b regulates that “the Allied Powers waive all reparations claims of the Allied Powers”. However, in addition to this, Japan began providing official development assistance (ODA) to China from 1979, and over the years Japan has done so in the amount of 3.316 trillion yen. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that since the end of WWII, Japan has gone above and beyond what was expected.:*:

Secondly, there is no further need for Japan to make apologies. On August 10th, 2011, the then Prime Minister of Japan, Naoto Kan, apologized to Korea for its colonization by Japan 100 years ago. He stated that “I would like to face history sincerely,” and continued to “express deep apology with all my heart and acute reflection.” Twelve other prime ministers, including Junichiro Koizumi and Yasuhiro Nakasone, have expressed apologies to the countries which Japan had invaded during WWII. Moreover, any further apologies from this point by not of the wartime period will lessen the meaning of the apologies that came before. It is perhaps necessary to point out that it is unfair to force children to apologize for their parent’s crimes which were committed before they were born.:cool:

Right from the beginning, requiring an apology is illogical :rolleyes:. Members of an international society should be comprised of those who are capable of highly logical thinking. An international society depends on rational member states, so there is little room for actions based on emotions. If a government makes decisions based on emotion, it might cause a holocaust again. Adolf Hitler promoted his anti-Semitism by playing on people’s emotions. Japan’s apologies were for actions are based on emotional elements. Continuing to require apologies from Japan or other nations will twist the growing international relationship away from one based on logic and rationality.

A nation is a large structure. It is similar to a ship. Sometimes it causes an immense accident. In that situation, the ship should immediately stop and compensation for the mistake must be made, and an apology must be issued. Still, the ship itself would not apologize. The crew and the captain have to apologize, but the ship not the ship, since it is a structure moved by humans. Nations are the same. A nation’s people can apologize, born out of personal emotional regret. However, the nation itself cannot apologize, because it is a structure. America invaded Iraq and ousted Saddam Hussein, while England and Spain historically owned powerful navies and invaded many Asian and South-American countries, such as Peru, never once making an apology. This is because those countries know the meaninglessness of an apology made by a structure.:biggrin:

Korea and China both have enormous diplomatic problems. Korea is divided into two regions which have technically been at war for the past 50 years, and China has intermittent domestic conflicts that it must frequently navigate. In order to deal with these difficult situations, the governments often choose to unite their own country by devising an enemy. In such situations, the ideal ‘enemy’ has routinely been Japan. The afore-mentioned demonstrations in China prove that these instances of civil unrest are famous for being controlled by the government. Similarly, China and Korea have reinforced their anti-Japanese education. There are plenty of countries that Japan invaded during WWII. However, only Korea and China maintain anti-Japanese public opinion percentages exceeding the number of people who hold a positive impression of Japan. This shows the relative incongruity of anti-Japanese education there.:rolleyes:

Learning and understanding history, and trying not to repeat past mistakes is necessary to achieve a peaceful and productive world. From this point of view, Japan, by remembering their mistakes, must make every effort not to repeat them, and the nation’s leadership has a responsibility to work towards world peace. However, these attempts should be made while staring fixedly at the future, not brooding over the “spilt milk” of the past :rolleyes: Japan was attacked by America with an atomic bomb, and 200,000 civilians died as a result :mad: The Japanese will never forget the 6th and 9th of August, 1945. However, this is not to make demands that America provides compensation nor makes an apology, but to remember not to repeat the tragedy. If the entire world becomes fixated on each other’s mistakes, then no country is free from the obligation to apologize and compensate for past actions. ‘An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.’ Why do people who never met each other before have to hate each other?

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !!!
 
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PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
[video=youtube;J2e4NlnLr28]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2e4NlnLr28&sns=em[/video]
 

SuperMod

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
[video=youtube;RdopMqrftXs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdopMqrftXs&sns=em[/video]
 

sleaguepunter

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
i am not defending anyone here but both sides politicians like to play punk whenever there a need to stir nationalistic sentiments due to domestic troubles. as much as prc not educating its citizens about the loans given by the jap govt to prc, the jap govt still want to whitewash history by not teaching its citizens what really happen during the conflict between china and japan from 1800s to 1945. whether or not the communists intigate the conflict or not, the war department of japan had plans to take over northern china since the meiji era. that cannot be denied.

as much as current generation should forgive what the japanese had done, that do not mean must forget about it. it not easy for a nation to just forget when tens of million of its citizens perished in the hands of the japanese. even now, many poles still cannot forgive what germany had done to them.
 

moolightaffairs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
what disgust me is those Chinese with their forefathers and relatives cruelly treated by the jap jump to jap defend so promptly, furiously and diligently whenever someone mention about how jap treated Chinese cruelly during WWII.

the problem is not with those who accused of not letting go of the past, but those who are doing all the defending for jap so furiously and accusing others of not letting go although they are Chinese with forefathers and relatives were also tortured or killed by the jap.

jap and Korea were under heavy influenced of Chinese Confucius teaching. Chinese teach “仁” as core of Confucius ethic. jap teach “忠” as core of Confucius ethic. so as long as they are loyal to the emperor, whatever wrong doing is correct because its in the name of the emperor. this is a resemblance of christianity, even u r a good person and u don't believe in god. u will go to hell when u die. those 走狗 or the Chinese defender of jap, no matter how you defend your belove, perfect jap. they will still look down on you because u r not loyal which they value most in their culture!!!
 

SixthColumn

Alfrescian
Loyal
what disgust me is those Chinese with their forefathers and relatives cruelly treated by the jap jump to jap defend so promptly, furiously and diligently whenever someone mention about how jap treated Chinese cruelly during WWII.

the problem is not with those who accused of not letting go of the past, but those who are doing all the defending for jap so furiously and accusing others of not letting go although they are Chinese with forefathers and relatives were also tortured or killed by the jap.

jap and Korea were under heavy influenced of Chinese Confucius teaching. Chinese teach “仁” as core of Confucius ethic. jap teach “忠” as core of Confucius ethic. so as long as they are loyal to the emperor, whatever wrong doing is correct because its in the name of the emperor. this is a resemblance of christianity, even u r a good person and u don't believe in god. u will go to hell when u die. those 走狗 or the Chinese defender of jap, no matter how you defend your belove, perfect jap. they will still look down on you because u r not loyal which they value most in their culture!!!
CHINESE CHAUVINIST PIG like you will not understand what is forgiveness...you are Passé! :biggrin:
 
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maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
your point was the KMT fought the Japanese more. my point was the CCP evaded the Japanese for close to 8 years and rarely fought a decent war. apparently. the CCP attacked Nationalist troops and colluded with the Japanese on occasions. that was our differences. note* even Edgar Snow, one of the biggest CCP cocksucker wrote in his book that CCP did limited fighting during the war. the CCP only fought one decent war in 8 years, that was Battle of Pingxingguan in 1937.
it was China’s blessing that the KMT and most of its aligned Warlords were selfless patriots during the war unlike the selfish CCP.

Haven't I mentioned that the Japanese were attacking the important areas in China and these happened to be occupied by the KMT (for obvious reasons, since they were in power)?
Also, before the truce following the Xi'an incident, the CCP couldn't fight the Japanese in the open because that would mean exposing themselves to the KMT.
You still couldn't accept the fact that China was weakened by the KMT-CCP war and that why the Japanese could attack it. And the KMT-CCP war was started by the KMT in 1927. Why don't you blame the KMT for betraying the Communists in the Shanghai Purge? At that time, everybody already knew the Japanese was planning to attack China. Why did Chiang still decide to break away from the CCP? Would Sun Yat Sen do the same thing?



Chiang didn’t wayang when he talked about the extensive preparation work needed for the war of attrition. he did it from 1931 to 1937. i could list out many things that he did. today. the ROC and PRC historians jointly agreed that Chiang’s war of attrition strategy was correct. China would be slaughtered by the Japanese if full war happened in 1931, not 1937.

Of course, he had to fight the Japanese. He was the ruler of China. He was fighting for his own Kingdom, just like Mao was fighting to get his.



there was nothing that contained contradiction. the Japanese made plans for the future invasion of China. whether there would be an invasion of China or not ? it depended on circumstances.

Of course everything depended on circumstances. You are making an absolutely meaningless statement.
If Japan had listened to its pro-China faction, there would be no war, right?
Maybe, if the USA had lent its full support to Chiang, there would be no war, right?
But you would only say that if the CCP hadn't existed, there would be no war.
In that case, why don't you say - if Chiang didn't break up the KMT-CCP alliance, there would be no war?

even if person B wanted to kill person C all along. person A still instigate B to kill C. are you suggesting that in a court of law, even if A was proven to has instigated B to kill C. A will not be found guilty because B had shown intentions to kill C all along ?
First, we aren't talking about court of law. In a court of law, if B had intention to murder C, that already would be a crime even if the murder didn't take place. But you would defend B saying it might not have happened because it depended on circumstances. Second, you don't have any evidence that the CCP instigated the KMT to start a full war. You kept saying the CCP provoked the Japs in Manchuria. But it was not just the CCP who wanted the Japanese out of Manchuria. The other KMT warlord generals also wanted to the fight the Japs there. Also provoking the Japanese is different from deliberating instigating the Japanese to attack China. Person A instigating person B to kill C means B telling C: "please kill C".


i shall write a bit about 7/7 story later. i have mentioned earlier. there were no solid evidences, only circumstantial and corroborating evidences of a CCP conspiracy in 7/7.

Is there a need? Didn't you say that the CCP had intented it to be a "local war" to embroil the KMT? Didn't you say it didn't plan for "that much"? So in your mind, the CCP didn't plan for 7/7 to start a full blown Japanese attack. You haven't come up with any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to support your assertion that the CCP had instigated the Japanese to launch a full war.

it was understandable why the KMT and CCP didn’t make peace. can't force these two sides with totally different ideologies to amalgamate together whatever. but during the Sino-Japanese war. both sides should cooperate to fight against the Japanese invaders. the KMT-CCP wartime cooperation was for appearance sake only. it was fine too if both sides can fight their own battles against the Japanese. but the problem was both sides actually fought irregular skirmishes with each other throughout the war. the CCP started the skirmishes 95% of the time.

the Wannan incident was the last straw that ended any real KMT-CCP united front. the KMT and CCP had their own versions of the story. both sides claimed the other side was at fault first.

according to the villagers eyewitness: the CCP troops kept firing at the KMT troops for a long time. the KMT kept enduring it until they can't bear it any longer and returned fire. ( 谁是新中国 by 辛灏年)

the consequences of the Central Plains War would be 9/18. the CCP moles within the Nationalist coalition provoked the Central Plains War. so the CCP were indirectly responsible for 9/18. this is totally logical.

your analogy or logic were way off the mark.

Again, if you put indirect responsibility on the CCP for 9/18, you could also put indirect responsibility on a lot of other things, like the USA failing to support KMT, or Chiang failing to make peace earlier, etc., etc. The list is endless. The bottomline is you still do not grasp the fact that China was at civil war. When a country is divided in a civil war and an enemy attacks, both parties of the civil war are to be blamed.
 

maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
There were photos and videos on the PM paying respect to the Shrine. Usually he just bowed to some altar which probably represented all the dead enshrined there, and that would include the war criminals. The Japanese could easily remedy the situation by removing the names of the war criminals from the shrine (likely that no remains were buried there), and nobody would protest. Also, if it weren't the PM paying respect, nobody would protest. The PM visiting the Shrine can only mean one thing - the Japanese Far Right is in control. Anybody who cannot see this is blind. Even if the PM himself isn't from the Far Right, if he visits the Shrine, he is trying win support from the Far Right.

Can you imagine if the Chancellor of Germany pays respect to a shrine in Germany honoring Hitler, Mengele, etc.? The Western world would raise hue and cry.

Also, in Germany, if any politician were to deny the Holocaust or other atrocities of WW2, there would be an uproar both inside Germany and the rest of the Western world.

Why is the West doing this? Is it because they are petty and less unforgiving? No. It is because they know that it is important to keep reminding everybody of the truth of the war atrocities so that nobody would repeat them. They know it is important to keep the hardline extremists in check at all times.

Now, did the Japanese keep their Far Right in check. No, in fact, the Far Right is in power. The PM visiting the shrine. Politicians denying Nanjing Rape, etc. Revising history textbooks. Do you seriously think the Chinese were unreasonable to think that the Japanese weren't sincere in their apologies?

A head of state paying respects to a shrine honoring war criminals is tantamount to telling the world that he didn't think the war crimes were a big deal.

It is okay that you are anti-CCP. I agree that the CCP is evil. But now you are starting to look like a Japan war apologist.




your reasoning is quite valid. various Japanese PM went to the Yasukuni Shrine to pay respect to the rest of dead soldiers, not the war criminals. nobody has a photograph of some PM bowing and praying to these war criminal, no PM come out saying i knelt down and paid respect to these war criminal. right ? :wink: btw the war criminals were divided into A,B and C class. so PM and Emperor cannot pray to all classes of criminals ? Cabinet ministers, MPs, Mayors or Japanese civilians can go there and pray to any dead inside ? actually. PM Shinzo Abe can go and sleep in Yasukuni Shrine everyday after work. he happy. can already. :biggrin:
 
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pallkia

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CHINESE CHAUVINIST PIG like you will not understand what is forgiveness...you are Passé! :biggrin:

Non -Chinese like you will never understand the enmity between the Chinese and The Japs.Nobody alive is capable to say forgive on behalf of those victims.I am a 3rd generation Chinese here and my mainland Chinese colleagues are very surprise I am more anti japs than them.I have passed a degree to the whole company both in Singapore and in China that nobody should buy japs goods otherwise........................The blood debts must be settled sooner or later maybe not in my lifetime,but I hope it must be payback!!
 

maozedong

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Please read my reply here: http://www.sammyboy.com/showthread.php?143689-What-do-you-think-of-Japan-s-militarization-plans&p=1415023#post1415023

You don't represent anything Anonymous stands for.



For your information , Yasukuni did not only hold war criminals , The shrine is not only for soldiers but for anyone who died on behalf of the Emperor of Japan. As such there are relief workers, factory workers, citizens and those not of Japanese ethnicity such as Taiwanese and Koreans who served Japan . So do you think it's wrong to pay respect to those people ? If your son is a murderer and is hanged , do you pay respect to your own son ? What if someone comes to hour house and tell you , you cannot pay respect to your son ? BY the way those relief workers die for your country isn't it ok to pay respect to them ? Do not forget many Japanese People wants their government to pay respect to those who die for their country . Sometimes You must look through things in a different lens . Who care about German if they did or did not pay respect to their soldiers . Japan and German have different religions and different culture so you can't compare them .

I have often thought about the number of apologies historically as well, and I have looked over that Wikipedia page several times after discussions in which Chinese friends told me that Japan had never apologized or that Japan’s apologies had never been sincere. Perhaps I should just print out that list and keep the paper in my wallet so that the next time I am told about the lack of Japanese apologies I can just cite some specific facts. Hatred for the Japanese are being taught in Korean school too .

Many atrocities have been committed by many countries over the centuries. It is not acceptable to smear people and then try to gloss over these smears by claiming their objections are a “technicality”, regardless of what other crimes they may have committed.
 
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SixthColumn

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Non -Chinese like you will never understand the enmity between the Chinese and The Japs.Nobody alive is capable to say forgive on behalf of those victims.I am a 3rd generation Chinese here and my mainland Chinese colleagues are very surprise I am more anti japs than them.I have passed a degree to the whole company both in Singapore and in China that nobody should buy japs goods otherwise........................The blood debts must be settled sooner or later maybe not in my lifetime,but I hope it must be payback!!
u a moo clone ah...hahahaha:biggrin:
 

SixthColumn

Alfrescian
Loyal
Non -Chinese like you will never understand the enmity between the Chinese and The Japs.Nobody alive is capable to say forgive on behalf of those victims.I am a 3rd generation Chinese here and my mainland Chinese colleagues are very surprise I am more anti japs than them.I have passed a degree to the whole company both in Singapore and in China that nobody should buy japs goods otherwise........................The blood debts must be settled sooner or later maybe not in my lifetime,but I hope it must be payback!!
by the way, you pass "degree" for fuck? or u mean DECREE???
:biggrin:
 
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