Abolish ISA Debate - Your Views

[scroobal]

http://singsupplies.com/showthread.p...40#post1216440

The above thread was interesting and I thought that the new title will attract others to contribute to the debate.

[scroobal]

Background:

There are 2 key pieces of legislation that allows for detention without trial. They are
1) Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Act - Cap 67, renewal every 5 years by Parliament since 1955. Best known as Section 55 by Secret Societies. Also used to put away kidnappers, drug traffickers, Gang rapists, Murderers etc. The Curry Powder Brother were detained under this Act.

2) Internal Security Act - Cap 143 - first enacted by the British in 1948 as the Emergency Regulations Ordinance to fight the communist who entered the jungles to wage guerrilla warfare. This was followed by Preservation of Public Order (PPSO) in 1955 by the Labour Govt. In 1960, Malaysia on gaining independence re-drew it as Malaysian Internal Security Act which latercovered Singapore as it joined the federation in Sept 1963. Interesting what was started in 1948 to fight the communist and nearly 40 years it was again used on the basis of a looming communist threat.

The issue:
Some of those who were detained as part of Operation Spectrum for alleged involvement in a "Marxist Conspiracy" are now calling for the abolishing of the Internal Security Act.

[Charlie99]

Background:

There are 2 key pieces of legislation that allows for detention without trial. They are
1) Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Act - Cap 67, renewal every 5 years by Parliament since 1955. Best known as Section 55 by Secret Societies. Also used to put away kidnappers, drug traffickers, Gang rapists, Murderers etc. The Curry Powder Brother were detained under this Act.

2) Internal Security Act - Cap 143 - first enacted by the British in 1948 as the Emergency Ordinance to fight the communist who entered the jungles to wage guerrilla warfare. IN 1960, Malaysia on gaining independence re-drew it as Malaysian Internal Security Act which latercovered Singapore as it joined the federation in Sept 1963. Interesting what was started in 1948 to fight the communist and nearly 40 years it was again used on the basis of a looming communist threat.

The issue:
Some of those who were detained as part of Operation Spectrum for alleged involvement in a "Marxist Conspiracy" are now calling for the abolishing of the Internal Security Act.

I agree with them, that the ISA, should be repealed earlier.

[mojito]

Background:

There are 2 key pieces of legislation that allows for detention without trial. They are
1) Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Act - Cap 67, renewal every 5 years by Parliament since 1955. Best known as Section 55 by Secret Societies. Also used to put away kidnappers, drug traffickers, Gang rapists, Murderers etc. The Curry Powder Brother were detained under this Act.

2) Internal Security Act - Cap 143 - first enacted by the British in 1948 as the Emergency Ordinance to fight the communist who entered the jungles to wage guerrilla warfare. IN 1960, Malaysia on gaining independence re-drew it as Malaysian Internal Security Act which latercovered Singapore as it joined the federation in Sept 1963. Interesting what was started in 1948 to fight the communist and nearly 40 years it was again used on the basis of a looming communist threat.

The issue:
Some of those who were detained as part of Operation Spectrum for alleged involvement in a "Marxist Conspiracy" are now calling for the abolishing of the Internal Security Act.

Ahh... scroobal. Sneaky as ever. You see this ISA debate is a red herring. Besides a few unfortunate souls and some bleeding heart liberals I don't really care if it is abolished or reaffirmed by parliament.

You see, the real issue that of an MP who had 7-8 terms as premier who managed to get his progeny set up for god-knows how many more terms as premier and a daughter-in-law who manages the nation's reserves. People cannot openly voice their displeasure or organize resistance by hitting the streets, ISA or no.

I say limit the number of terms for premiership to two and allow public meetings without hindrance. That would severely limit the use of ISA for political gains. Fighting for animal rights is a long shot when slavery is rampant, don't you think?

[captainxerox]

Background:

There are 2 key pieces of legislation that allows for detention without trial. They are
1) Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Act - Cap 67, renewal every 5 years by Parliament since 1955. Best known as Section 55 by Secret Societies. Also used to put away kidnappers, drug traffickers, Gang rapists, Murderers etc. The Curry Powder Brother were detained under this Act.

2) Internal Security Act - Cap 143 - first enacted by the British in 1948 as the Emergency Regulations Ordinance to fight the communist who entered the jungles to wage guerrilla warfare. This was followed by Preservation of Public Order (PPSO) in 1955 by the Labour Govt. In 1960, Malaysia on gaining independence re-drew it as Malaysian Internal Security Act which latercovered Singapore as it joined the federation in Sept 1963. Interesting what was started in 1948 to fight the communist and nearly 40 years it was again used on the basis of a looming communist threat.

The issue:
Some of those who were detained as part of Operation Spectrum for alleged involvement in a "Marxist Conspiracy" are now calling for the abolishing of the Internal Security Act.

don't matter if abolish or not, any law can be abused. public entertainment licence for one when used on csj. but if want to abolish isa, then introduce specific new ones to deal with the terrorists and spies. that is a good wp alternative.

on those arrested in 1987, they keep spinning they are social workers and government keep demonising them as out to overthrow pap. truth is probably somewhere in between. no smoke without fire.

[zhihau]

I say limit the number of terms for premiership to two and allow public meetings without hindrance.

me would second this notion of a limit to the number of terms for premiership to two terms

[kingrant]

My stand is clear. Whack the govt which abused the laws, no point going after the laws.

As long as the PAP govt stands, any law can be abused by this absolute power of the executive branch. The only way is through the ballot box. Even the council of presidential advisers is effete. Don't even think about our Judicial review.

[mojito]

me would second this notion of a limit to the number of terms for premiership to two terms

Thank you for the vote of confidence zhihau. Sometimes I wonder if that is enough to remove the lice accumulated from years of neglect.

[cyberfish]

Is that possible ? I do not think so. Thanks for showing this.

[yellowarse]

My stand is clear. Whack the govt which abused the laws, no point going after the laws.

There are laws and there are laws. Some laws are unjust and unconstitutional; they are open to abuse. The ISA is one of them. Do we keep such laws?

[kingrant]

You really don't get it. Even if you get rid of all unjust laws, a rogue govt can still always detain you without trial, and what are you going to do?

There are laws and there are laws. Some laws are unjust and unconstitutional; they are open to abuse. The ISA is one of them. Do we keep such laws?

[Simbian]

The problem with ISA is that it allows the state to hold someone prisoner without trial - this essentially goes against the precept of habeas corpus. Even Abraham Lincoln, regularly ranked as the greatest president in American history, has this thing hanging over his legacy due to suspending haebas corpus during the Civil War.

And kingrant, you do have your point. Repealing all these unconstitutional laws does nothing since we have already been neutered by 40 years of PAP rule. But there must be starting point.

Recently, an American colleague (the principal architect) asked me why in general Asians are submissive to authority - in my mind, I know he was referring to our tendency to cave in to whatever demands management made of us and then become hideously demoralized, unmanageable and unhappy. I candidly asked him if he had read the works of Martin Seligman and he instantly knew what I was talking about.

[yellowarse]

You really don't get it. Even if you get rid of all unjust laws, a rogue govt can still always detain you without trial, and what are you going to do?

How dense can you get? Did I say that I condone a rogue govt or we should not try our best to rid ourselves of a tyrannical regime?

What I'm saying is we should never let the ever-extant prospect of dictatorships and rogue governments justify the retention of unjust and unconstitutional laws. And the ISA is one such law.

Going by your (il)logic, should we then throw out the whole Penal Code just because there will always be recalcitrant criminals out there who keep breaking the law? We might as well revert to the laws of the jungle then. Duh ...

[kingrant]

I believe you concur with me despite the inept and inane way you have expressed it.

How dense can you get? Did I say that I condone a rogue govt or we should not try our best to rid ourselves of a tyrannical regime?

What I'm saying is we should never let the ever-extant prospect of dictatorships and rogue governments justify the retention of unjust and unconstitutional laws. And the ISA is one such law.

Going by your (il)logic, should we then throw out the whole Penal Code just because there will always be recalcitrant criminals out there who keep breaking the law? We might as well revert to the laws of the jungle then. Duh ...

[kingrant]

Good point.

The problem with ISA is that it allows the state to hold someone prisoner without trial - this essentially goes against the precept of habeas corpus. Even Abraham Lincoln, regularly ranked as the greatest president in American history, has this thing hanging over his legacy due to suspending haebas corpus during the Civil War.

And kingrant, you do have your point. Repealing all these unconstitutional laws does nothing since we have already been neutered by 40 years of PAP rule. But there must be starting point.

Recently, an American colleague (the principal architect) asked me why in general Asians are submissive to authority - in my mind, I know he was referring to our tendency to cave in to whatever demands management made of us and then become hideously demoralized, unmanageable and unhappy. I candidly asked him if he had read the works of Martin Seligman and he instantly knew what I was talking about.

[mojito]

There are laws and there are laws. Some laws are unjust and unconstitutional; they are open to abuse. The ISA is one of them. Do we keep such laws?

I think we understand your point perfectly well. I don't deny its existence goes against certain principles for fairness and democracy. I don't oppose a review of this archaic law. But there are bigger fish to fry with the PAP, so I can't help but feel that you folks are devoting too much resources in arguing for a change that makes little impact to the way the PAP conducts its business.

How about fighting for freedom of assembly, freedom of organizing labour unions and release of trade unions from state influence? Dissidents who believe in their cause do not fear the ISA, they are simply outlawed because such movements are deemed illegal, not because of the consequence of which they can be detained without trial.

It is probably true that people were detained unfairly under the ISA but the episode has passed for ages without the victims uttering a word. Why now? Because there is widespread anger over public policies where the failings of the the administration has become apparent.

There are also other people who have been grievously hurt by public policies who could benefit from an organized frontal assault on the PAP position. In contrast the anti-ISA lobby, anti-death penalty, etc are marginal causes with little broad appeal, and frankly I despise the notion that it is stealing the show from causes higher on my list of priorities. As a private citizen, perhaps I will support the lobby if my concerns are also presented. That is why political parties exist, so my advice is for you to work together with SDP, get your act together and stop splintering back into your little interest groups in order to pursue your petty agendas.

Be genuinely concerned about the masses, and they will in turn support your cause in parliament. Why, if the PAP has been successful on the economic front, I am sure Asiatic serfs do not mind a few years of martial law, never mind if it is right or wrong.