Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ.......

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

HTOLAS said:
Sir, why are you comparing a fledgling political opposition with established ones like the DAP and DPP? The population's attitude towards opposition is also different. And why do you seem to think that WP's stance in parliament will remain as it is? Might it not evolve as they get more practice?

Since you like things 'tough', let me be a little tough on you. You are not my 'friend', so please do not address me as such.

Thank you.

WP was founded 5 decades ago, it is 25 years older than DPP... DPP took 14 years to break through, overcoming martial law... I am not expecting Wp to do the same though

zhihau · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

RafflesTiger said:
Have u guys wondered why Low is never invited for international talks on human rights and Chee is always invited?

for a long time me always thought Low wasn't invited because of his poor diction and Chee was invited because of his ang moh accent :rolleyes:

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

BusNo64 said:
Did i ? .... from CNA forum, u come all the way to stir the same here..... yeah...post more from your pathetic temasek times shit here....o|o

Please be tolerant of alternative views... Temasek Times is hardly a PAP mouthpiece.......

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

zhihau said:
for a long time me always thought Low wasn't invited because of his poor diction and Chee was invited because of his ang moh accent

Really?? Then why not invite Slyvia Lim... Truth be told, CNN and the foreign media do not think WP and PAP are that different... You are free to disagree

BusNo64 · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

RafflesTiger said:
Please be tolerant of alternative views... Temasek Times is hardly a PAP mouthpiece.......

Torlerant ki lan... Dr Ong Chor Teck...have u visit geylang pros lately?

HTOLAS · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

Sir, extreme states like martial law generate its own retaliatory mindsets - that provided a ready constituency for the DPP. Another ready constituency was the native Taiwanese (as opposed to the Mainlanders who came after 1945), who had been discriminated against for a long time.

So, while the DPP might have been relatively new as a political party, the problems it represents precede the WP. Another reason why the DPP is 'new' is simply because alternative parties were not allowed until external and internal pressure forced open the political landscape in Taiwan, relatively recently.

RafflesTiger said:
WP was founded 5 decades ago, it is 25 years older than DPP... DPP took 14 years to break through, overcoming martial law... I am not expecting Wp to do the same though

zhihau · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

RafflesTiger said:
Really?? Then why not invite Slyvia Lim...

oh... when did Chee come onto the political scene? when did Sylvia come onto the political scene? how long did it take the foreign media to identify Chee as an opposition in the Singapore political scene? has Sylvia been invited to international talks on human rights? had Sylvia and/or WP championed human rights in Singapore? if Sylvia and/or WP had not championed human rights in Singapore, does that mean that they are lesser of an opposition in Singapore? if Sylvia and/or WP had not championed human rights in Singapore now, does that mean that they are not going to do so in future?

of course, you're also free to disagree :smile:

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

HTOLAS said:
Sir, extreme states like martial law generate its own retaliatory mindsets - that provided a ready constituency for the DPP. Another ready constituency was the native Taiwanese (as opposed to the Mainlanders who came after 1945), who had been discriminated against for a long time.

So, while the DPP might have been relatively new as a political party, the problems it represents precede the WP. Another reason why the DPP is 'new' is simply because alternative parties were note allowed until external and internal pressure forced open the political landscape in Taiwan, relatively recently.

Sir, as CSM put it, how many 5 years do we have?? If there can only be subtle change, bit by bit, I am afraid none of us will be around to witness it...

Just to quote an example.. During GE 2011, the foreign press interviewed a man who had difficulty walking and he hoped more will be done for him when more opposition MPs get in.. How many years can he wait?? How many years can we wait?

Do u know what the founding DPP leaders went through to build tawian as a vibrant democracy... The major of Kaoshiung for example was locked up for 6 years... Without sacrifice, there will not be change

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

zhihau said:
oh... when did Chee come onto the political scene? when did Sylvia come onto the political scene? how long did it take the foreign media to identify Chee as an opposition in the Singapore political scene? has Sylvia been invited to international talks on human rights? had Sylvia and/or WP championed human rights in Singapore? if Sylvia and/or WP had not championed human rights in Singapore, does that mean that they are lesser of an opposition in Singapore? if Sylvia and/or WP had not championed human rights in Singapore now, does that mean that they are not going to do so in future?

of course, you're also free to disagree

Without freedom of expression, real change will not happen.. Face it, 100000 people can gather in KL, but once 3 gathers in Singapore holding paper cards, they will up red car...

steffychun · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

RafflesTiger said:
Francis Seow said Low did not help JBJ when he could have.. Instead, he took the chance to seize the leadership.. I surmise that he does not think Low is genuine opposition, even Gopolan Nair regularly takes pot shots at WP..

Do u guys know LKY has often spoken well of Low Thia Kiang... The PAP of today is hardly the PAP of yesterday but its the same with WP.. Have u seen the WP MPs debate in Parliament?? You guys truly believe WP will risk everything to champion your rights?? From their performance so far, I do not think so.. They steer well clear of the sensitive issues, if u know what I mean

Yaw Shin Leong might have been positioned as future WP leader as he is a PAP supporter, he openly declares how much he likes PAP..

Low is true opposition. Gopalan Nair is spewing crap.

Nice-Gook · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

This says all by the very peson who took a defunct Workers Party from David Marshall.....built it up with his sweat and blood; and in the process lost everything he owned and loved including his family and dignity.Without JBJ and his near capturing of a GRC and for the first time in Singapore the crowd it drew with fiery speeches of FS/JBJ/TLH---there would be no such thing as a WP branding.

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HTOLAS · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

Sir, Ms Sylvia Lim has been interviewed on the foreign media a number of times. Unfortunately, you'll have to take my word for it because I do not have the links.

Next, CSJ is often cited in the foreign media because:

He has actively sought this media attention, because he sees it as a way to highlight injustices in Singapore, which I respect
He is 'newsworthy' - he is portrayed as someone who is suffering for his beliefs in a dramatic way
Perhaps, the foreign media see him as having no other avenue of expressing his position.

And how did you manage to get into the minds of the foreign media to know that they do not think that WP is very similar to the PAP.

And, of course, you too are free to disagree.

RafflesTiger said:
Really?? Then why not invite Slyvia Lim... Truth be told, CNN and the foreign media do not think WP and PAP are that different... You are free to disagree

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

And yet Low did not help JBJ when he could as Francis Seow said..

steffychun · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

Take it as it is: Do you want a bleeding heart liberal human rights fighter like Chee in power? Then why have people ignored SDP after he ousted Chiam

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

HTOLAS said:
Sir, Ms Sylvia Lim has been interviewed on the foreign media a number of times. Unfortunately, you'll have to take my word for it because I do not have the links.

Next, CSJ is often cited in the foreign media because:

He has actively sought this media attention, because he sees it as a way to highlight injustices in Singapore, which I respect

He is 'newsworthy' - he is portrayed as someone who is suffering for his beliefs in a dramatic way

Perhaps, the foreign media see him as having no other avenue of expressing his position.

And how did you manage to get into the minds of the foreign media to know that they do not think that WP is very similar to the PAP.

And, of course, you too are free to disagree.

If CSJ didn't genuinely believe in his cause, he would have sought political asylum already.. As for why I know that foreign media thinks PAP and WP are similiar, Yahoo had an article on this.. More or less saying they will cooperate as their ideology is not that different... Referring to the current WP, not the old one

zhihau · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

RafflesTiger said:
Without freedom of expression, real change will not happen.. Face it, 100000 people can gather in KL, but once 3 gathers in Singapore holding paper cards, they will up red car...

well, there are always points we can agree upon. this me is in agreement with you: there's a law forbidding 4 or more people to congregate in protest.

then again, change can happen even without any expression, for change itself is always in motion, i.e. changes are always taking place :o:o:o

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

steffychun said:
Take it as it is: Do you want a bleeding heart liberal human rights fighter like Chee in power? Then why have people ignored SDP after he ousted Chiam

Among the DPP leaders today, most of them are like Chee... Its just that Singapore media has portrayed him in a bad light... After all its ranked only so low...

DPP taiwan is a suitable benchmark because its the only Chinese majority democratic country in the World like Singapore(you can disagree on this)

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

zhihau said:
well, there are always points we can agree upon. this me is in agreement with you: there's a law forbidding 4 or more people to congregate in protest.

then again, change can happen even without any expression, for change itself is always in motion, i.e. changes are always taking place :o:o:o

CSM said, how many 5 years do we have?? How long will it take to change like this...

zhihau · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

RafflesTiger said:
And yet Low did not help JBJ when he could as Francis Seow said..

this is a very interesting topic to further our discussion:
how could Low had done to help JBJ? to clear his debts? using whose funds/monies?

RafflesTiger · May 25, 2012

Re: Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ...

zhihau said:
this is a very interesting topic to further our discussion:
how could Low had done to help JBJ? to clear his debts? using whose funds/monies?

Francis Seow was not referring to the money part... He was referring to JBJ leaving WP under pressure... I mean JBJ need not resign as SG would he, even if he was bankrupt...

Actually that book is good reading.. talks about DPM Teo's involvement in Tang Liang Hong's case too

Francis Seow specifically mentioned in his book that Low could have helped JBJ.......

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