WP / Teo Chee Hean Intellignce Debacle

When Png rebutted TCH's claim and stated that he was against the NCMP scheme and did not put his name forward, it resulted in a massive flurry of internal behind-the-scenes activites with a huge "who fucked up" banner and made the Minister of Home Affairs and the DPM of all people sound like an idiot.

This is a country where the Intelligence Services are expected to know the size of someone's underwear. So who fucked up until the Minutes of meeting appeared.

Was That leaked Minutes of Meeting of the secret ballot that was produced a face saving exercise for the DPM?

With LTK,s explanation, this matter has left a bitter after taste for the establishment.

Anyone who understands the concept of party whips will understand what LTK said as it is a familiar practice in the Westminister model of parliamentary democracy. No party can allow its members to set party direction or make important decision unilaterally or at the sidelines. The CEC is there not to serve coffee and tea. There is an expectation that once you become a member and then offered candidacy, important decision will be taken by the party. The PAP operates along the same lines. Tan Cheng Back voted against the NCMP scheme when the whip was not lifted and he was disciplined. He subsequently took part in parliament together with NCMPs even though he made it known his vehement opposition to it. Png is no different.

I looked at the thread on Png but I see enough idiots who have no clue about what is going on but focusing on issues of Png's integrity. Talking about missing the forest for the trees.

I am sure some here are still lost at what had transpired. There are also wider issues about the role of the Intelligence Services and the proverbial line in the sand which demarcates national interest and party politics. Was the line crossed? Who leaked the Minutes? Who in WP provided the Minutes and if an Estalblishment figure receive the leaked Minutes? Has the institution of parliamentary democracy severely compromised?

In 5 decades of PAP, old man took great pains not to reveal this particular hand. GCT did likewise. Who fucked up this time?

For someone who was Chief of Navy and top management of SAF, he sure has lost touch with the OODA principles. Bad intel is sometimes worse than no intel. This is how MIW operate these days? Shoot first and ask questions later? Patience is not one of his many positive traits here

scroobal said:

Anyone who understand the concept of party whips will understand what LTK said as it is a familiar practice in the Westminister model of parliamentary democracy. No party can allow its members to set party direction or make important decision unilaterally or at the sidelines. The CEC is there not to serve coffee and tea. There is an expectation that once you become a member and then offered candidacy, important decision will be taken by the party. The PAP operates along the same lines. Tan Cheng Back voted against the NCMP scheme when the whip was not lifted and he was disciplined. He subsequently took part in parliament together with NCMPs even though he made it known his vehement opposition to it. Png is no different.

I looked at the thread on Png but I see enough idiots who have no clue about what is going on but focusing on issues of integrity.

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The sad reality in all this is that the layman can't tell the diff between Westminster and a West bound train. It shows the breath of his cockiness and the contempt with which he regards not just the electorate, but Sinkies at large, to believe that he could pull off a stunt such as this.

kazuo said:

The sad reality in all this is that the layman can't tell the diff between Westminster and a West bound train. It shows the breath of his cockiness and the contempt with which he regards not just the electorate, but Sinkies at large, to believe that he could pull off a stunt such as this.

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The sad reality is layman are the majority while people who are better informed and more politically savvy are the minority. Now I am afraid the theme for this BE will turn to become an issue of WP honesty. Local and national issue can virtually be thrown out of the window.

This has the feel of TCH going off on a tangent.

Prior to the BE, it was obvious that there was a well planned campaign. This is why PM Lee made those statements about needing time.

All the pieces appeared to be in place and the campaigning started off with quite a well co-ordinated effort. Different popular PAP heavyweights came up and said their allocated piece.

Then TCH started this line of attack and the whole campaign seem to go into a sort of paralysis. It is useful to note that other than TCH, no one of substance from the PAP has come up to support TCH. Tharman, KBW, LHL have all been deathly silent. Contrast this to the previous scripted co-ordinated approach where key people said things to support the overall objective.

Since GE 2011, TCH has gained much power and influence within the PAP. He is going off on something which many in the PAP are not comfortable with. Hence the silence from the other PAP heavyweights. The use of the minutes which come from the Intelligence services might not have been cleared with Cabinent. TCH is afterall Minister of Home Affairs and the Intelligence Service reports to him.

Cruxx said:

... <IMG src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_05AEYCz2EIs/TEcekHys6rI/AAAAAAAAG7k/PkoSCVOc0n8/s1600/eiling+%26+lamborghini+superleggera.jpg" width=120></IMG>

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u got her no? ...

They really machiam brothers.

if TCH used local intelligence agencies to obtain the wp cec minutes, then use the media to leak the minutes, it as good as telling wp that there a mole inside the party and should be easy to trace the mole. So what TCH did was to burn the mole in order that he dont lose face. That stupid, and coming from a SAF man, is unforgiveable.

sleaguepunter said:

if TCH used local intelligence agencies to obtain the wp cec minutes, then use the media to leak the minutes, it as good as telling wp that there a mole inside the party and should be easy to trace the mole. So what TCH did was to burn the mole in order that he dont lose face. That stupid, and coming from a SAF man, is unforgiveable.

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Some consumers are that smart!

Being a top man in SAF, you think he will be so stupid? Unless it is a mole that supposed to be "burned" but they just couldn't find the reason to do it.

sleaguepunter said:

if TCH used local intelligence agencies to obtain the wp cec minutes, then use the media to leak the minutes, it as good as telling wp that there a mole inside the party and should be easy to trace the mole. So what TCH did was to burn the mole in order that he dont lose face. That stupid, and coming from a SAF man, is unforgiveable.

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ChewCheng said:

Being a top man in SAF, you think he will be so stupid? Unless it is a mole that supposed to be "burned" but they just couldn't find the reason to do it.

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if this is how singapore intelligence agencies treat its agents/informers, then they will not be able to recruit anymore as nobody will want to suffer the same fate.

To all the Bros who responded,

The integrity of Singapore entire Parliamentary Democracy is at stake. If the PAP Govt as the current custodian of this institution had no hand in this atrocious conduct, they should initiate a parliamentary commission of inquiry under whose auspices a full and thorough investigation must be carried out.

The layman might not have grasped what actually transpired but this to me a treasonable conduct. The State and its primary institutions require the protection of those who have been entrusted to do this job.

If this is the conduct of a rogue WP member with no involvement of any State apparatus, then let this guy face the consequence of his or her action.

Then maybe there is no agent but really a unhappy WP member? Not hard to find out who, if they want to. From the way LTK had spoken about it during rally, it seems he already has an idea who is the one.

sleaguepunter said:

if this is how singapore intelligence agencies treat its agents/informers, then they will not be able to recruit anymore as nobody will want to suffer the same fate.

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Singapore and many countries operate with multiple moles and listening posts to corroborate incoming intelligence. Relying on one single mole is bad intelligence. All those political parties are aware of these things. Some moles don't even know they are working for the establishment. Some think they are serving the nation. Others will for a penny bend down real fast.

All the above is done with the purpose of protecting national interest. We can't have our politicans being steered by hidden hands or foreign powers.

Moles are seldom important unless the target is highly elusive or cautious. Political parties have to be accessible to the public, so it is not easily contained animal.

In this case, the state looks bad if no inquiry is done.

The last time there was an intelligence slip up was when the Govt revealed Francis Seow's amex spending in the US. Amex and the US govt were extremely upset. It is minor compared to this.

sleaguepunter said:

if this is how singapore intelligence agencies treat its agents/informers, then they will not be able to recruit anymore as nobody will want to suffer the same fate.

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Don't need special intelligence for an expose. Just need a very very disgrunted former WP member will do.

Details posted here http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?...eting-to-Media&p=1083982&posted=1#post1083982

scroobal said:

The last time there was an intelligence slip up was when the Govt revealed Francis Seow's amex spending in the US. Amex and the US govt were extremely upset. It is minor compared to this.

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Imo, this is very minor compared to other unreported incidents. Quite clearly, the PAP is very desperate. When LKY called the shots, no need to get Cabinet clearance even if it means a source's ID could be compromised. It happened at least once. In the current case, not sure if TCH would have gone ahead without Pinkie's blessing.

aurvandil said:

Since GE 2011, TCH has gained much power and influence within the PAP. He is going off on something which many in the PAP are not comfortable with. Hence the silence from the other PAP heavyweights. The use of the minutes which come from the Intelligence services might not have been cleared with Cabinent. TCH is afterall Minister of Home Affairs and the Intelligence Service reports to him.

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I agree. This episode shows dissension within PAP, not within WP.

wikiphile said:

For someone who was Chief of Navy and top management of SAF

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Paper generals sound like the right title for him.

Speaking just like a season Intel operator. But if inquiry is conducted, investigation will start from WP, what would be the reaction from public then? WP should look into their own people first and decide what to do.

scroobal said:

Singapore and many countries operate with multiple moles and listening posts to corroborate incoming intelligence. Relying on one single mole is bad intelligence. All those political parties are aware of these things. Some moles don't even know they are working for the establishment. Some think they are serving the nation. Others will for a penny bend down real fast.

All the above is done with the purpose of protecting national interest. We can't have our politicans being steered by hidden hands or foreign powers.

Moles are seldom important unless the target is highly elusive or cautious. Political parties have to be accessible to the public, so it is not easily contained animal.

In this case, the state looks bad if no inquiry is done.

The last time there was an intelligence slip up was when the Govt revealed Francis Seow's amex spending in the US. Amex and the US govt were extremely upset. It is minor compared to this.

Click to expand...