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Hidden Debt of Europe

neddy

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
When I watch ABC News, I choked on my fishball over this ...

111128%20gulp.png

It's not really net debt as a percentage of GDP that is the problem, it's the official and contingent liabilities (including health care and pensions) that is sucking money out of indebted countries.

Esp = Spain
Hel = Greece
Deu = Germany



which explains this


111129%20joining%20the%20pigs.png

The French and German 10yr government bond yields

PIGIGFS
 
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singveld

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health care is a black hole, the european can dump all the money they have into in and it will disappear. Imagine all those expensive cancer drugs, given free to citizen so they can live a little longer. The people there have good health care which prolong their life and every month, they have to give them pension until they die. eventually they will run out of money to give their old people the pension. that why they keep expand EU. try to take in younger nation to offset their old western countries.
 

neddy

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health care is a black hole,

Thank America for the healthcare crisis. Their system is rorting world health.

Here are a few statistics (from ABC News, Science Daily and the National Coalition on Health Care) that put the crisis into perspective:

The U.S. has the world’s most expensive healthcare system, yet one-sixth of Americans are uninsured. National surveys reveal that the primary reason is the high cost of coverage.

Approximately one-third (31%) of adults and a little more than one-half (54%) of children do not have a primary care doctor.

Federal spending on healthcare in 2005 alone totaled $600 billion, a massive one-quarter of the federal budget.

Someone files for bankruptcy every 30 seconds because of health concerns. And every year, 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure due to unaffordable medical costs.

The U.S. spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health insurance system than Western European nations, who insure all of their citizens.

The total medical expenditures for the uninsured of nearly $124 billion in 2004 was more than the combined expenditures of the Iraq war and “war on terror” programs.

The percentage of adults who receive recommended preventative care and screening tests according to guidelines for their age and sex is only 49%.

Each year, the number of Americans who die from medical errors is close to 100,000—more than double the annual number of deaths from car crashes.

The list could go on. The critical problems that need urgent resolution are the lack of access to healthcare, the high cost, a perceived lack of fairness in the system along the lines of race and class, and ineffectiveness in improving the overall health of the populace. Other major contributing issues include declining patient choices; the increased control in healthcare decisions by managed care companies as they seek to further limit access to care; frustrated, overworked medical practitioners; nurses departing from the medical profession in droves; and quality of care issues.

America’s healthcare system is in turmoil.

Do you know why???


health_insurance_universal-aswz-090325.gif
 
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longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
While pension and healthcare costs are indeed a major problem, the chart could be trying to be sensational. A lot of this liability is to be faced over the next 30 to 50 years and if you summed it up today it seems a lot. But over the next 30 years, the GDP would have grown too. More interesting would be projected GDP growth vs project pension and healthcare costs. This is where an aging pop - slowing GDP vs explodinh healthcare/pension costs becomes a big issue.

Say I made $100K a year and I just bought a $1M condo. My debt to earnings (GDP) is 1000%. But very simplistic because my salary would increase faster than my house payments. However, if I am 50 (aging pop) and I just bought condo then I will have an issue.
 

longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
US healthcare cost is a BIG problem. That is why Obama tried to tackle it but as you can see the amount of money people are profiting from current model makes it very very difficult.

We will all be faced with difficult questions - example, aging Dad at 85 is dying. But with $ and modern med, we can buy another year of decent living (so he can see grandchild born or attend a wedding). Should we (society) pay for it? Say it cost $250K to do so.
 
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neddy

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While pension and healthcare costs are indeed a major problem, the chart could be trying to be sensational. A lot of this liability is to be faced over the next 30 to 50 years and if you summed it up today it seems a lot. But over the next 30 years, the GDP would have grown too. More interesting would be projected GDP growth vs project pension and healthcare costs. This is where an aging pop - slowing GDP vs explodinh healthcare/pension costs becomes a big issue.

Say I made $100K a year and I just bought a $1M condo. My debt to earnings (GDP) is 1000%. But very simplistic because my salary would increase faster than my house payments. However, if I am 50 (aging pop) and I just bought condo then I will have an issue.

It is taken from Chart 12, page 15 of the WestPac Market Insight AUG 2011.

http://www.westpac.com.au/docs/pdf/aw/economics-research/MarketInsightsAugust2011.pdf
 

longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
The thing is that a lot of this "contingent liab" is based on current policies. Totally agree that if US continues to allow citizens to start draw on their cpf at 65 when lifespan will go from 83 years to 90 years (in 20 years time). When they continue to offer healthcare for retirees without a cap on types of services paid - then of course such liab will become unaffordable.

What if they change draw on cpf from 65 to 70? What if they cap level of medical ins for retirees. Just these 2 policy changes would dramatically reduce the liab.


It is taken from Chart 12, page 15 of the WestPac Market Insight AUG 2011.

http://www.westpac.com.au/docs/pdf/aw/economics-research/MarketInsightsAugust2011.pdf
 

bart12

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Loyal
Why is Europe Mathematically impossible to save?

In an interview with Jim Puplava she looks at the scale of the problem as a whole (http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/2011/12/02/ann-barnhardt/interview-transcript):

Well, if anybody out there understands fourth grade arithmetic you know from metaphysical certitude that Europe is done. Europe is mathematically impossible. It cannot be saved.

You want to make a start. You even want to make a start at trying to bail out Europe we are talking $25 trillion just to start.

And it would then - if you were going to bail out the entirety of Europe - you would now be talking about hundreds of trillions of dollars.

Okay, people, there isn’t that much wealth or money on the surface of the earth. The total gross domestic product of the entire planet earth is I think just under $70 trillion. And we are talking about in excess of $100 trillion to bail out Europe? This is now mathematically impossible.

It's not a matter of if the global financial system is going to collapse. Oh, it's going to collapse. You better trust and understand that. It's just a matter of when. And these piddling little maneuvers that these people are making, that the Fed is doing.

Oh, we are going to give Europe some money. Okay. What I saw this morning, what the Fed is getting ready to do in terms of Europe, is keep Europe going for another seven days. Well, fantastic. Thanks for that. That is literally the brain dead mindset of these politicians.

All they are doing is looking to kick the can down the road. At first it was kick the can down another 10, 12 years. Then it is kick the can down the road for another year. And then it was well, let’s kick the can down the road for another few months. Now we're literally to the point where all we can do is kick the can down the road for a matter of a few days. It's not going to make it.

I will be very surprised if we make it until Christmas.
 

Windsor

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Like it or not, the euro is doomed

By Hibah Yousuf @CNNMoneyMarkets December 9, 2011: 11:40 AM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- As European leaders unveil their latest plan to solve the debt crisis, economists and market experts aren't convinced they'll actually be successful.

At least one group says there are one too many obstacles and chances are, the currency union will break up, triggering an end of the euro as we know it.

"Three years after the first 'once in a generation' financial crisis, we may now be entering the end game for a euro of 17 countries," said Graeme Leach, chief economist at the Institute of Directors, a London-based non-political organization comprising 43,000 business leaders worldwide, but primarily in the United Kingdom.
Incidentally, the U.K. was also the one country that staunchly opposed the latest deal, with Prime Minister David Cameron saying, "What is on offer isn't in Britain's interests."
Early Friday, European leaders, including 17 members of the eurozone, which share the embattled single currency, reached a deal for a new intergovernmental treaty to deepen the integration of national budgets.

With the exception of the U.K., it appears the plan also has the backing of the majority of the European Union.

But questions remain about the role of the European Central Bank. The ECB has been buying debt on a limited basis, as part of an emergency program, but there have been calls for more aggressive action.

Leach argues that the collapse of the euro is inevitable without the ECB's virtually limitless financial support.

ECB President Mario Draghi has firmly said, time and time again, that the central bank's only mandate is to prevent inflation.

"It's the ECB or bust," Leach said. "Unless the ECB begins to operate as a sovereign lender of last resort function, with massive purchases of eurozone public debt, the inexorable logic is that the eurozone will break up."

ECB willing to help banks, not governments

The latest moves are steps in the right direction, but much more is needed, say experts.

Despite the multitude and extent of the political disagreements that could lead to the eurozone's crumble in the near-term, more optimistic experts say Europe's leaders will likely find a middle ground to avoid the severe economic consequences.

"The political arguments are strong, but they come against a hard economic reality," said Andrew Milligan, head of global strategy at Standard Life Investments in Edinburgh, Scotland, noting that the costs for a single country leaving the eurozone could amount to at least 15% or 25% of its economy, if not more.

World's largest economies"A break-up could result in very major recession in Europe, and so it's hard to imagine how any politicians and governments could possibly make a conscious, voluntary decisions to leave the eurozone," said Milligan.
But that doesn't mean it won't ever happen.


Milligan said leaders will likely lurch from crisis to crisis, and Europe's leaders will keep having to face complex political hurdles.


"The chances that the eurozone will remain intact over the next several months are high, but the danger could get worse over the next couple of years, as they try and transition toward any sort of fiscal union," said Milligan.


"All of the harebrained schemes invented so far to resolve the crisis in euroland remain half thought out, unfunded and unimplemented...and therefore, still harebrained," said Carl Weinberg, chief economist at High Frequency Economics.

European leaders, particularly from France and Germany -- the eurozone's two largest economies -- have had very different views on the ultimate role of the fiscal compact, and the latest proposals are just "too little, too late, and miss the structural problem," said Leach.

Germany has been strongly opposed to sending the ECB down a path of printing money to stabilize Europe's economy.

"Printing money is associated with hyperinflation, the collapse of the Weimer Republic, and the rise of Hitler," noted Leach. "From a German perspective the question is that, once the ECB has lost its virginity printing money, just how promiscuous could it become."

[h=2]European leaders hash out crisis deal[/h]And even if a "catastrophic event" changes Germany's mind, Leach says hurdles remain because "the ECB's balance sheet is already shot to pieces. It's massively over-leveraged."

Though investors and experts alike expect the ECB to intervene for fear of the alternative, Leach doesn't think that a fundamental change is likely.

And with no other surefire way out, Europe's hard hit "Club Med" economies like Greece, Italy and Spain could be driven "to the point where they deem it in their national interest to exit the euro," despite the immediate economic, political and practical consequences. And it could happen in the next six months, he said.
Not everyone agrees.

Evolution Securities analyst Elisabeth Afseth only sees a 10% chance of a euro break-up happening that soon, but agrees that European leaders have a lot of work to do, and kicking the can down the road only increases the risks of an end to the eurozone.

"In the short-run, it's beneficial for everyone to stay in the eurozone because the cost and pain of a break-up would be huge," she said. "But European leaders have to be careful in how they formulate the fiscal union. If the terms are all wrong, that's not good for the long run, and the danger of a break-up will remain."

Afseth said the fiscal union needs to focus more on boosting economic growth, rather than just pushing for budgetary discipline and fiscal austerity. And it needs to advocate for pooling the eurozone's debt together, so the region can issue eurobonds, another highly contentious topic among Europe's political leaders.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/09/markets/euro_breakup/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=hp_bn1
 
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Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
Like it or not, the euro is doomed

By Hibah Yousuf @CNNMoneyMarkets December 9, 2011: 11:40 AM ET

Where were all these "experts" when the Euro was being touted as the currency to replace the USD when the sub prime crisis shit hit the fan in 2007.

The world of journalism is full of monday morning quarterbacks. At the end of the day, they're no better than a bunch of kids in an internet forum when it comes to predictions.

http://www.nber.org/digest/feb07/w12333.html

"In a 2005 survey of central banks, most respondents said they intended further diversification away from the dollar, and several have recently made public announcements along these lines."
Will the euro replace the dollar as the leading international currency? With two-thirds of all international reserves still held in U.S. currency, the challenge of the euro appears remote. Indeed, this was the widely held view when the euro was introduced less than a decade ago. But in Optimal Currency Shares in International Reserves: The Impact of the Euro and the Prospects for the Dollar (NBER Working Paper No. 12333), authors Elias Papaioannou, Richard Portes, and Gregorios Siourounis argue that the euro's rise to major international currency status may no longer be as implausible as many believe.


The euro's growing appeal comes from several factors: the euro zone is comparable to the U.S. economy in term of GDP and trade openness; the European Central Bank has kept inflation in check; the EU experiences nothing like America's current account deficit and external debt, which apply considerable pressures on the dollar. In a 2005 survey of central banks, most respondents said they intended further diversification away from the dollar, and several have recently made public announcements along these lines.
 

Windsor

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Asset
Where were all these "experts" when the Euro was being touted as the currency to replace the USD when the sub prime crisis shit hit the fan in 2007.

The world of journalism is full of monday morning quarterbacks. At the end of the day, they're no better than a bunch of kids in an internet forum when it comes to predictions.

The banks, media and governments are being controlled by a small group of people and it is now that our eyes are opened. Singapore's leaders are in cahoots too as we all know, one being LKY's appointments as an international advisor to corporations such as JP Morgan, Total, DaimlerChrysler, etc.

The newly selected(not elected) leaders of Greece and Italy are prime examples that the world economy is being runned not by politicians but by bankers. As one by one when a country goes under, there will be a change in leadership allowing a banker to head the country. This will be the new world order.
 

Leongsam

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Admin
Asset
The banks, media and governments are being controlled by a small group of people and it is now that our eyes are opened. Singapore's leaders are in cahoots too as we all know, one being LKY's appointments as an international advisor to corporations such as JP Morgan, Total, DaimlerChrysler, etc.

Are you one of those who subscribe to the belief that the moon landing was a hoax?
 

Fook Seng

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Leongsam said:
Where were all these "experts" when the Euro was being touted as the currency to replace the USD when the sub prime crisis shit hit the fan in 2007.

The world of journalism is full of monday morning quarterbacks. At the end of the day, they're no better than a bunch of kids in an internet forum when it comes to predictions.

Maybe they knew it at that time. Making it a world currency of choice would strengthen its survival as not only Europe would have to deal with the problem, the entire world would have to do it.
 
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