MINDEF blames deceased soldier instead of accepting responsibility

[GoldenDragon]

Here is the inside track. I do however acknowledge and accept that many in this forum will treat this as speculation, gossip and conjecture unless it is officially published in the Toa Payoh Brothel press and tangible evidence presented directly at their doorstep.

1. Mindef has been successfully sued before by the families of NS men and I am referring to cases where the families have not accepted settlement. Compensation have been increased substantially by the High Court as a result including one case where a soldier was found unconscious and now remains in a vegetative state but the circumstances leading to it remains a mystery to this day (no evidence of Mindef wrong-doing but it occurred while in their care). So not sure why the so called legal eagles here are offering views that seems misplaced at best.
2. No public servant is above the law and the state has prosecuted them for all sorts of matters including negligence over the years. Hendon Camp death, multiple deaths from Naval vessel collision with cargo ship, death of Guardsmen from premature release of rappelling etc have led to AG prosecuting them successfully and the cases were handled by the Police.
3. Mindef like the Government is at their usual best, omitting material fact and that half baked general is making matters worse. If they can call flood ponding, you know the rest.
4. This family is very unusual and I am being kind here. From the onset, their demands have been all over the shop and people dealing with them believe that someone is stirring the pot and this may not be in the interest of the family. They want the Minister to personally apologise and Mindef pay for the tomb. I suppose they next want Tony Tan to lead the funeral band in full state regalia and twirling baton. They also want Mindef to state a figure but they themselves do not want to state a figure. Claims that he is going to be the future goalkeeper for Singapore has been bandied around after his schoolboy sprinting potential was overshadowed by others and therefore his net worth ....etc etc. In their Facebook, they mentioned that they are not after money and no intention to crucify the 2 Capts. Then what the hell do they want exactly.
5. Going to Chee is their biggest mistake. It also lends credibility to the original suspicion in some quarters that this was politically motivated and the family is mere pawns.
6. Someone sensible should point to a decent experienced lawyer whose has history in this and start re-negotiation and sue for high compensation thru the courts. The additional money can pay for the tomb if they prefer.
7. It should be noted that the Malay Captain has volunteered to waive the $6000 and will bear the legal charges himself. I am sure he knows that he made an error, underwent the trauma of a disciplinary process, records marked more or less for life yet found it in his heart to make the gesture. Short of he giving his life, i am not sure what else he can do.

Welcome back, bro! This forum will now be back to its previous high. Claire can take the place of Ramseth.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Welcome back, and interesting perspective on the issue, scroo. The family's behaviour is not that unusual IMO, and it's part and parcel of the psychology of grief which makes you do haphazard things. So they are pretty hard pressed in explaining why they are doing all these and it comes out as a big mumbo-jumbo.

Chee couldn't have been their first choice. They must have gone to other parties, WP presumably, got rejected, and then turned to Chee. Momentous error and they effectively politicized their own grief in the worst possible manner. But again, this is what grief does to human beings and I can understand.

Absolutely agree. Family of deceased would have been better off if they ask Leongsam for advice.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Absolutely agree. Family of deceased would have been better off if they ask Leongsam for advice.

Leongsam will tell them that a minimum casualty rate is acceptable in normal military training!!

 

[Leongsam]

Leongsam will tell them that a minimum casualty rate is acceptable in normal military training!!

We accept a certain death rate when driving on the roads. Nobody expects ZERO deaths. Accidents are part and parcel of of current transport technology. It is a price we pay for the convenience of getting from point A to B at a speed faster than a brisk run.

So when it comes to defending the country, it is inevitable that things will go wrong once in a while for various reasons because humans are not perfect. All the training safety procedures in the world are not going to prevent that.

No Officer is going to kill his men on purpose. If they did it would be murder. It has to be accepted that training involves a degree of risk and that injuries and death are bound to occur.

I'm guessing because I don't have the stats but I'm willing to bet that more NS men get killed outside of camp than they do during training.

 

[GoldenDragon]

We accept a certain death rate when driving on the roads. Nobody expects ZERO deaths. Accidents are part and parcel of of current transport technology. It is a price we pay for the convenience of getting from point A to B at a speed faster than a brisk run.

So when it comes to defending the country, it is inevitable that things will go wrong once in a while for various reasons because humans are not perfect. All the training safety procedures in the world are not going to prevent that.

No Officer is going to kill his men on purpose. If they did it would be murder. It has to be accepted that training involves a degree of risk and that injuries and death are bound to occur.

I'm guessing because I don't have the stats but I'm willing to bet that more NS men get killed outside of camp than they do during training.

And ......................... what type of compensation, boss?

 

[Leongsam]

And ......................... what type of compensation, boss?

If I lost a son during training I wouldn't want any money because $$$ cannot replace the loss of a loved one. A lowly sum would be an insult. A large sum would be ridiculous.

As long as the state acknowledged the sacrifice my son made, I would be happy.

 

[yahoo55]

Welcome back, and interesting perspective on the issue, scroo. The family's behaviour is not that unusual IMO, and it's part and parcel of the psychology of grief which makes you do haphazard things. So they are pretty hard pressed in explaining why they are doing all these and it comes out as a big mumbo-jumbo.

Chee couldn't have been their first choice. They must have gone to other parties, WP presumably, got rejected, and then turned to Chee. Momentous error and they effectively politicized their own grief in the worst possible manner. But again, this is what grief does to human beings and I can understand.

Don't think the family's behavior is unusual, they have the right to seek justice and fair compensation for the death of their son.

The workman compensation for the death of NSF is a fucking joke, MINDEF probably follow the below guidelines set by MOM, the life and death of a Sinkie NS slave is fucking cheap for PAP and MINDEF.

http://www.mom.gov.sg/workplace-safety-and-health/work-injury-compensation/changes-to-wica-in-2016

Compensation type : Death

Accidents before 1 Jan 2016
Min: $57,000
Max: $170,000


Moreover the death of this boy is due to negligence as mentioned by the Minister, the family has the right to sue MINDEF and the officers for negligence that caused the death of their son. And after the case is thrown out of court by the fuckup judge, MINDEF now says in their statement that their son's death is not due to negligence.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

So when it comes to defending the country, it is inevitable that things will go wrong once in a while for various reasons because humans are not perfect. All the training safety procedures in the world are not going to prevent that.

No Officer is going to kill his men on purpose. If they did it would be murder. It has to be accepted that training involves a degree of risk and that injuries and death are bound to occur.

The problem here is that the death was due to negligence and not through some freak accident that no one could have foreseen. In other words, a completely preventable death and therefore a thoroughly needless and unjust one

 

[Brightkid]

If I lost a son during training I wouldn't want any money because $$$ cannot replace the loss of a loved one. A lowly sum would be an insult. A large sum would be ridiculous.

As long as the state acknowledged the sacrifice my son made, I would be happy.

Boss, pardon me har, but what you need was exactly addressed by a what's-her-name lady Minister of State, I think, about Sserving NS is not about monetary reward, but pure based on NSmen's love for the country. If I not wrong, this was said when another MP suggested higher allowance for NSmen?

There you have it. Parliament already acknowledge NSmen's sacrifice for the country, not for money. You should be happy from now onwards.

Pardon me hor.

 

[steffychun]

I say again Mindef cares. Googke Daryl Loh NAVY

 

[Leongsam]

Boss, pardon me har, but what you need was exactly addressed by a what's-her-name lady Minister of State, I think, about Sserving NS is not about monetary reward, but pure based on NSmen's love for the country. If I not wrong, this was said when another MP suggested higher allowance for NSmen?

There you have it. Parliament already acknowledge NSmen's sacrifice for the country, not for money. You should be happy from now onwards.

Pardon me hor.

Yes and the same applies to compensation. Other than covering costs of the funeral and related expenses, it would be a big insult to offer money to replace a loved one. It would mean that a price could be placed on a life which is never the case.

 

[Leongsam]

The problem here is that the death was due to negligence and not through some freak accident that no one could have foreseen. In other words, a completely preventable death and therefore a thoroughly needless and unjust one

When I was a recruit we through smoke grenades like there was no tomorrow. Nobody died.

Smoke grenades are a low risk item. I've suffered more going into a lounge on Friday night compared to any exercise involving smoke grenades.

The idiot tried to downplay his asthma. He created his own life threatening scenario.

I did the same thing when I was in OCS. I had a medical condition which I did not declare because I wanted to get my commission. If I had died because of it the last thing my parents would have done would be to try and blame the army. They were well aware that I needed an operation and I was postponing it till the pips were on my shoulder.

 

[GoldenDragon]

When I was a recruit we through smoke grenades like there was no tomorrow. Nobody died.

Smoke grenades are a low risk item. I've suffered more going into a lounge on Friday night compared to any exercise involving smoke grenades.

The idiot tried to downplay his asthma. He created his own life threatening scenario.

I did the same thing when I was in OCS. I had a medical condition which I did not declare because I wanted to get my commission. If I had died because of it the last thing my parents would have done would be to try and blame the army. They were well aware that I needed an operation and I was postponing it till the pips were on my shoulder.

Sorry boss, allow me to highlight two points.

Your suffering in the lounge was voluntary. No one forced you to go. No one forced you to drink. 100% you went willingly. Deceased had no choice but to do NS.

Downplay his asthma? No one of sound mind would kpkb if the supervising officers adhered to SOP on what is permitted and what is not. I salute the deceased for not 'kenging.' He wanted to better serve his country.

 

[Leongsam]

Sorry boss, allow me to highlight two points.

Your suffering in the lounge was voluntary. No one forced you to go. No one forced you to drink. 100% you went willingly. Deceased had no choice but to do NS.

Downplay his asthma? No one of sound mind would kpkb if the supervising officers adhered to SOP on what is permitted and what is not. I salute the deceased for not 'kenging.' He wanted to better serve his country.

The issue is not which is voluntary and which is mandatory. I am merely pointing out that nobody expects someone to die just because extra smoke grenades were thrown. When I was training my men I often turned a 5km run into a 7 km run if there was time.

 

[GoldenDragon]

The issue is not which is voluntary and which is mandatory. I am merely pointing out that nobody expects someone to die just because extra smoke grenades were thrown. When I was training my men I often turned a 5km run into a 7 km run if there was time.

That being the case, why not throw 20 smoke grenades?

Similarly, why not amend the law to allow inmates to be caned 100 strokes at one go?

Quite surely, a cap exists for a good reason.

 

[Leongsam]

That being the case, why not throw 20 smoke grenades?

Similarly, why not amend the law to allow inmates to be caned 100 strokes at one go?

Quite surely, a cap exists for a good reason.

If I wrote the guidelines it would read... "sufficient smoke grenades to be thrown in order to provide cover and concealment".

When it came to caning it would be. "sufficient strokes so that the bastard will never dream of offending ever again".

Nothing is black and white in this world. It's all about making judgement calls. That's what separates humans from computers.

 

[PTADER]

Here is the inside track. I do however acknowledge and accept that many in this forum will treat this as speculation, gossip and conjecture unless it is officially published in the Toa Payoh Brothel press and tangible evidence presented directly at their doorstep.

There's no need to preface each of your post with any self-serving, pre-emptive crap. Just state what you want to state.

Just because it is proclaimed by you as coming from your self-proclaimed "inside track" does not make it any less of a "speculation", "gossip" or "conjecture" in which the inaccuracies cannot be pointed out, bullshit cannot be highlighted, the veracity queried or the POV questioned by any forummers or anyone else for that matter.

Thanks.

 

[GoldenDragon]

If I wrote the guidelines it would read... "sufficient smoke grenades to be thrown in order to provide cover and concealment".

When it came to caning it would be. "sufficient strokes so that the bastard will never dream of offending ever again".

Nothing is black and white in this world. It's all about making judgement calls. That's what separates humans from computers.

Thanks for enlightening us with your comments.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Sorry boss, allow me to highlight two points.

Your suffering in the lounge was voluntary. No one forced you to go. No one forced you to drink. 100% you went willingly. Deceased had no choice but to do NS.

Downplay his asthma? No one of sound mind would kpkb if the supervising officers adhered to SOP on what is permitted and what is not. I salute the deceased for not 'kenging.' He wanted to better serve his country.

Absolutely agree

Whether Dom downplayed is asthma is a side story. Even if Dom had tried to be garang and a hero (a real life hero, that is), the fact is that he was killed by negligence.

If Dom had hid his medical condition and he died even though sop were all followed then I have nothing to say.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Absolutely agree

Whether Dom downplayed is asthma is a side story. Even if Dom had tried to be garang and a hero (a real life hero, that is), the fact is that he was killed by negligence.

If Dom had hid his medical condition and he died even though sop were all followed then I have nothing to say.

Yes. If can suka suka throw grenades, might as well end training early by throwing all at one go. Why even bother to have safety guidelines on the max allowed.