Will NEWATER and Desalination Bankrupt S'pore?

[Television]

Key-points..

1. Electricity- What if there is an Energy Crisis? Will our Taps dry out?
2. Politics - Is it safer for us to produce our own water or risk being thirsty because of politics?(Build the plants and switch it on if there is a Water Crisis)
3. Money - Will Citizens pay more for water? Is there any money to be made? etc... Selling it commercially non- Resident

 

[Alamaking]

Hyflux is earning good if you guys wanna know, they my client so I know a bit, lol

 

[escher]

Whose fault?

Sinkies voted and voted again and again for them.

You get what you voted for

 

[Papsmearer]

hahaha......now 9 months after the 1st water agreement expired it is time to revisit this topic.....
the price of water had not increased as the cockerals had predicted....
the desalination plants in Singapore are operated by private companies based on DBOO (Design,built,own,operate) concept......
the first desalination plant (in Tuas) sold water to "PUB" at around SGD0.48/cu m (tender price) in its first year of operation in 2005/2006.
the second DBOO desalination plant is scheduled to start operation in 2013...
the point is not that desalination is the preferred choice but it is a viable alternative to diversify the sources of raw water.

Well, thanks for dredging this topic up. But have you gone kuku in the head? I fail to understand your logic here.

1) The first desalination plants sold water to PUB at $.48/cu m is good meh? PUB was paying 3 sen for 1000 gallons under the old water agreement with Malayia. 1000 gallons = 4.546 cu m. So now, PUB is paying $.48 X 4.546 = SGD$2.18 (or 543 sen for the same 1000 gallons at today's exchange rate). Exactly who do you think pays for this? The PUB? HArdly, its passed on to the consumers.

2) price have not increased? I think it has gone thru the roof now. Its about what? $2.70 per cu m in total. The price of water may seem not to increase to you, but your feeble mind should comprehend that they have added other charges and increase in other areas to disguise the real cost, such as waterborne fee , GST, conservation tariff, chargeable fittings, etc. Bottom line is that consumer has indeed have to pay more to get water.

3) Desalination plants operated by private companies in singapore? Which fantasy is this in? Why don't u say all airlines are operated by private companies in singapore? Do you truly believe that in singapore, such a big and important and politically sensitive enterprise like the desalination plant is not owned by the govt.? Cityspring owns the desalination plant. Cityspring is a business trust, i,e. a trustee-manager owns and holds all the assets in trust for its shareholders. The trustee - manager controls the desalination company. Guess who owns the trustee-manager? 100% owned by Temasek holdings. In addition, Temasek also owns over 30% of the shares of this business REIT, a well as control it. Hardly private if you ask me.

4) Everything is a viable alternative. Buy tanker full of water from thailand is viable too. tow one iceberg to singapore is viable too. invade a neighbour and take their water is also a viable alternative. U see the word bankrupt at the top of this thread? Its a question of cost. It always has been. And the point of this whole thread is that now, we are going to pay like crazy for this water, to the point of bankruptcy from what I can see. We have missed the opportunity thru incompetence and pride of the PAP and Old Goat to negotiate a long term raw water agreement from Johor. There is no way u can justify to me or to anyone in this forum (with half a brain) that building multi-billion dollar desalination plants, using expensive energy to produce this water, building new infrastructure to tie into the water line, etc. is better or cheaper than paying 3 sen per 1000 gallon for raw water.

 

[Cruxx]

3) Desalination plants operated by private companies in singapore? Which fantasy is this in? Why don't u say all airlines are operated by private companies in singapore? Do you truly believe that in singapore, such a big and important and politically sensitive enterprise like the desalination plant is not owned by the govt.? Cityspring owns the desalination plant. Cityspring is a business trust, i,e. a trustee-manager owns and holds all the assets in trust for its shareholders. The trustee - manager controls the desalination company. Guess who owns the trustee-manager? 100% owned by Temasek holdings. In addition, Temasek also owns over 30% of the shares of this business REIT, a well as control it. Hardly private if you ask me.

There's a private sector in Singapore?

 

[Papsmearer]

Singapore 1st water contract expired is only about 10% daily usage. So will be not much different. When 2nd contract end that 50 year in future. Still very far away and no need to think.

10% says who? PAP? PUB? U think it cannot be increased if they want to? They are pumping below the max allowed as far as I can recall.

 

[Papsmearer]

There's a private sector in Singapore?

don't look at me, kukubird seems to think there are private companies in a strategic economic activitiy.

 

[Papsmearer]

Malaysia is very unhappy to sell us water at 3 cents even more unhappy to buy it back at 50 cents. Does that explain why we need Newater ? Singapore is exploring these technologies to develop and export them. Scarcity of water will be a huge problem in many parts of the world. Singapore is making a virtue out of necessity.

Read the posts in this thread first. There is no doubt that malaysia was unhappy at the selling price and also at the buy back price. But all this is negotiable. If we offered the malaysians 50 times more for their water, will it make them happy? I believe so. Even at 50 X, we still get water at much cheaper than what it would cost for desalination. But when u have a bad relationship with your supplier, and disrepect them, than it could be $1 million per gallon, and they still will not sell to you.

 

[eatshitndie]

it's a good reminder to all that water delivered to homes and offices is not free. neither is the water delivered to bidets. :p

 

[Papsmearer]

it's a good reminder to all that water delivered to homes and offices is not free. neither is the water delivered to bidets. :p

This is one of the reason why the PAP lets in so many FT. Original singapore born population, maybe 3.5 million. Total FT = 2 million, hence u have population of 5.5 million. Every single business enterprise in singapore is owned or controlled by the govt. or by GLCs. These GLCs funnel their profit to Temasek, the various ministries that own them, and eventually money ends up in GIC or Temasek. Which are both controlled by the Familee (including Kwas). These various business all rely on volume to earn more profits. For example, PUB makes a profit from every cu m they sell to the consumer. Since water use is general calculated on a per capita basis, Imagine what profits they can make with an additional 2 million FTs using their product. Same for MRT. 2 million more Fts mean 2 million more riders everyday, imagine how much more money they can make versus just 3.5 million local population. U can make the case for taxis, for electricity, etc. i.e. the more users the more profit flow towards Temasek and GIC.

 

[eatshitndie]

2 million more Fts mean 2 million more riders everyday, imagine how much more money they can make versus just 3.5 million local population. U can make the case for taxis, for electricity, etc. i.e. the more users the more profit flow towards Temasek and GIC.

they run simulation after stimulation after simulation using sim city 2000 before enacting the ft policy. :p

 

[wMulew]

I got sick and tired of the recent PAP propaganda about the 4th Newater plant coming online and how we are now using Newater for 30% of our water needs. I did some simple checking and from what I can see, these are the numbers I arrived at..

Malaysia + Turn off the tap.

Either you are too young to remember or have short term memory. Matland have threatened to "turn off the tap" more times then I can remember. Why the hell did you think we need to maintain such a huge army. Why did you think the government is so obsess with finding new alternative sources. You may like to live in a world where your water supply can be cut off anytime for no good reason, I don't

 

[greedy and cunning]

Those numbers do not give a true picture of what may potentially be catastrophic for Newater.

Those high pressure pumps require lots of maitenance not forgetting high energy usage to drive them. And thos microscopic membranes, they cost a bomb and are prone to plugging and fouling. Any one of them not working properly of causes a breakthrough, its not so easy to detect. Not to mention the many thousands of chemicals that we pour down our drains. Does anyone really believe they test for every single one of those chemicals. Its just mindboggling impossible. Just to give an example:

If a car workshop decide to dump coolant that he replaces into the sink, would anybody know? We know it happens cos its impossible for NEA to check everytime we use the sink/toilet. Multiply that with the various activities that goes on daily in Singapore and I start to shudder.
The effects on our children's health will only surface decades later. By then its too late.

Desalination on the other hand costs a bomb to operate because it consumes enormous amounts of energy.

We pay for all these. I'd rather give a little more to Mahathir and retain the threat to strike than drink shitwater and not know how it mutates my sperm. By then the intransigent old man would be dead and there would not be a grave to piss on him.

you hit the nail squarely on it's head.

and most fools here still do not realise that drinking new water is actually bad for health in the long term.
it gets worse if it is 90% , 100% newwater.

we came to this stage because the people involved in the negotiation are too arrogant , proud to think clearly.
particularly the Great Leader.
to lose in any deal is a great lost of face.

 

[greedy and cunning]

The problem is that Lee Con You has for ever been going around telling the world how rich we are, how high our GDP per capita is, how much billions $ we have in our soveriegn wealth fund. Like that how to negotiate with another party when they already know u have money. They will hold out for the higher price from you and try to milk you for every dollar. Better to pretend like u are poor, and cannot afford a high price. Lee Con You is inflating his own ego with our money.

are you implying that Con You is a typical boastful , arrogant , bragging sinkie ?

 

[greedy and cunning]

myo539

[Mahathir has always publicly threatened to cut our water supply - they and the UMNOs boys have always been shouting "potong, potong!" Mahathir didn't want 100 times more ringgits, he wanted 1000 times more - we know that was simply an excuse, a poker bluff. LKY can see through him. Lesser leaders (as seen in recent Ge or PE elections) would have fallen for the trick. ]

are you sure mad hatier asked for 1000 times more ? where is your source ?
you drinking too much Evian water and become navie or what ?
agreement signed between 2 countries can suka suka terminate any time ?
they want to potong your cock iszit ?

 

[greedy and cunning]

Malaysia is very unhappy to sell us water at 3 cents even more unhappy to buy it back at 50 cents. Does that explain why we need Newater ? Singapore is exploring these technologies to develop and export them. Scarcity of water will be a huge problem in many parts of the world. Singapore is making a virtue out of necessity.

sinkie has been get water from malaya for donkey years , was there any unhappiness before Mad Hattier time.
why suddenly Mad Hattier got angry ?
yes scarcity of water will be a global problem , one major cause is people are polluting the rivers especially in third world countries.
china is one good example , allowing industrial waste to be dumped directly into the rivers.
but don't depend on sinkie to come up with a technology to solve this.

 

[greedy and cunning]

Malaysia + Turn off the tap.

Either you are too young to remember or have short term memory. Matland have threatened to "turn off the tap" more times then I can remember. Why the hell did you think we need to maintain such a huge army. Why did you think the government is so obsess with finding new alternative sources. You may like to live in a world where your water supply can be cut off anytime for no good reason, I don't

no leh , he is not young and don't have short term memory.
treaties , agreements signed between 2 cuntries cannot be void anytime , like you say.
if malaysia cut the supply before end of contract , it's honour will be zero in the world.

 

[wMulew]

no leh , he is not young and don't have short term memory.
treaties , agreements signed between 2 cuntries cannot be void anytime , like you say.
if malaysia cut the supply before end of contract , it's honour will be zero in the world.

Treaties between countries in the region are void all the freaking time. Just recently(last year I think) Thailand ministers is trying to void all rice contracts negotiated with countries like Philippines because Yingluck promise higher payouts for the farmers. Treaties are only honored by governments who are honorable. What in our history with Malaysia makes U think they are anything like that!!!!! Hell they promised to go by the result of the Pedra Branca ruling and immediately after the loss the case their first reaction was to find some way to appeal it.

 

[Papsmearer]

Malaysia + Turn off the tap.

Either you are too young to remember or have short term memory. Matland have threatened to "turn off the tap" more times then I can remember. Why the hell did you think we need to maintain such a huge army. Why did you think the government is so obsess with finding new alternative sources. You may like to live in a world where your water supply can be cut off anytime for no good reason, I don't

Unfortunately, I am not that young anymore, and my memory is excellent. Perhaps your lack of brains is the issue? Malaysia (I am talking about various govts. of the day) have never threatened to turn off the tap. If you have a quote from any Malaysian politician or minister making this threat to turn the tap off, please display it now. The threats are usually issued by other non govt. groups. For example, when Tan Koon Suan was prosecuted for Pan-El, his party MCA threatened to ask the malaysian govt. to cut the water. When Kuan Yew call Johor bahru a "den of thieves", manh people there also want to cut the water. Too many examples to give, but bottom line, all these orgs and people are not th emalaysian govt. hence, desire to cut the water means nothing.

Regarding the govt. being so called "obsess" with finding new sources of water, that is another stupid comment you made. The govt. was never obsessed because they always thought that the water treaties would be renewed. Until Kuan Yew fuck up the negotiations, there were never any "obsession" to find new sources. For example. a water pipeline from the Indoensian Riau islands to singapore was trumpeted with lots of govt. fanfare about 20 years ago. It was touted as a real alternative to Johor water. Well, what happened to it now? U hear anything about it? Given Kuan Yew's super cosy relationship with Suharto at that time, should be an easy done deal. U ever ask youself why shower water is not used to flush toilets in HDB flats? Or why there is no water catchment system on the roof tops of HDB buildings, or why there is no serious concerted water conservation policies in place? Are these signs of obsession?

Regarding the huge army that we have. This is truly your dumbest statement. The water is located in Malaysia, its their natural resource and their asset.If they don't want to sell it to you, it becomes a breach of contract between 2 sovereign powers and singapore can go to the world court and sue for damages. But to invade them with the army is act of war and will never be condoned by the UN or anyone else. And given the quality of our generals, officers, and even regular men, I am not sure we can win either. The reason we have a huge army lies elsewhere, but we will not debate that here. Just do your own research.

 

[Papsmearer]

you hit the nail squarely on it's head.

and most fools here still do not realise that drinking new water is actually bad for health in the long term.
it gets worse if it is 90% , 100% newwater.

we came to this stage because the people involved in the negotiation are too arrogant , proud to think clearly.
particularly the Great Leader.
to lose in any deal is a great lost of face.

Newater in other parts of the world is blended with other sources of water like river, or well, etc. At the most, 25% is the highest concentration. No where else in the world is the water bottled 100% for human consumption.