First class and Second class citizens

There appeared to be many here who had actually taken the step to emigrate to their desired land.

Which means that they had moved from a first-class singaporean citizen to a second-class citizen of the desired country.

As a first-class singaporean, i can only think of these advantages:

As a second-class citizen of another country, these may be the disadvantages:

Can those who had actually made the move please comment if being a second-class citizen there better than a first-class citizen here?

Thank you.

kakowi said:

There appeared to be many here who had actually taken the step to emigrate to their desired land.

Which means that they had moved from a first-class singaporean citizen to a second-class citizen of the desired country.

As a first-class singaporean, i can only think of these advantages:

(1) amongst singaporeans, so less discrimination
(2) higher subsidy for education although the actual amount is marginal compared with asian students
(3) subsidized C-class wards

​

As a second-class citizen of another country, these may be the disadvantages:

(i) racist treatment at the hands of the ang-mos
(ii) cannot move into managerial jobs
(iii) no gun control; no death penalty; soft drugs tolerance (but do these lead to a sense of unease?)

​

Can those who had actually made the move please comment if being a second-class citizen there better than a first-class citizen here?

Thank you.

Click to expand...

I actually felt more rewarding as an Aussie.

1. People give me credit for my opinions and views at work

2. As a manager, I do have to deal with certain people who dislike being managed by Asian managers. For some, it is because they have not encountered an Asian manager. I have to be firm and not use my position (legitimate power) as much. It is more my capabilities that finally win them over. When they realise that i am fair and don't play the blame game - I get invited to Friday drinks with the guys or my female colleagues show me their baby photos etc. For others, they just have to leave - some of these people are just losers in lives anyway.

3. I find it easier to work with Asians in Australia. But compared to angmo (except South Africans, French and Zimbabweans), I enjoy working with them rather than a number of Singaporeans I have encountered. Perhaps we have more interaction, communications and more tolerant. I cannot stand people who demand explanation for minor things like not attending meetings or even having to submit sick leave for 1 day absence from work.
Singaporeans are too efficient at the expense of enjoying the work.

4. Problem with drugs. This is an big issue in the western world. Perhaps in Australia, they take a more educated view. It is not simply stereotyping that all drug addicts are bad, but we do take into account why they got into drugs in the first place. We do not sentence them in our mind that they are ALL bad people. You seen drug addicts given up their seats for old ladies.

5. I personally find doctors and nurses here more caring. Since I have paid for medicare levy and joined a private health fund, I do expect a certain level of service. No public hospital can turn away me if I need treatment, otherwise, it will be in tomorrow's news and the health dept will have to explain. So, far visits to GP, pathology, ultrasound, etc are free (bulk-billed - the clinic bill the govt and out of pocket expenses met by the private health fund) Sound complex, but the system is not perfect.

6. Students take government loan to study which they repay when they start working. Basically, university work on cost recovery model for locals, and profit-motivated for international students.

kakowi said:

There appeared to be many here who had actually taken the step to emigrate to their desired land.

Which means that they had moved from a first-class singaporean citizen to a second-class citizen of the desired country.

As a first-class singaporean, i can only think of these advantages:

(1) amongst singaporeans, so less discrimination
(2) higher subsidy for education although the actual amount is marginal compared with asian students
(3) subsidized C-class wards

​

As a second-class citizen of another country, these may be the disadvantages:

(i) racist treatment at the hands of the ang-mos
(ii) cannot move into managerial jobs
(iii) no gun control; no death penalty; soft drugs tolerance (but do these lead to a sense of unease?)

​

Can those who had actually made the move please comment if being a second-class citizen there better than a first-class citizen here?

Thank you.

Click to expand...

Another point to add is that I felt more in control, I am not living a passive life like in Singapore, and I learnt to be more generous.

I am less calculative, less mean-spirited and I have learnt to treat people with humanely. I have lost my serious sour Singlish face and have become more humourous and laid back.

I am more direct, and I will fight for my rights. If treated unfairly, I will voice out, and embarass those who try to be funny.

In fact, challenges are no longer something bad, but something to better me.

I am quite sick of the fearmongering from authority, and I will have no problem throwing my shoes at LKY (in Australia only) if I found out that he has squander away the peoples' money.

I find comfort zones both in my adopted country and the country of my birth.

To borrow the words from this forum : Emigration "The cowards never started and the weak died along the way. Good riddance to those who made it."

Hello Neddy,

Thank you a lot for your very detailed replies.

You know, as i read your posts, the differential factors between being a singaporean and a citizen of another country does not seem to be substantial.

Most important of all, your posts give me the understanding that you have no regrets absolutely in coming to Australia in search of a more meaningful life.

.....

Neddy, getting up and shifting citizenship is one of the most difficult thing a person can do, i feel. It means starting all over again, calling a new place home.

It takes courage.

Your posts give one a sense of confidence that here is one person who made it.

.....

Thank you very much.

kakowi said:

Hello Neddy,

Thank you a lot for your very detailed replies.

You know, as i read your posts, the differential factors between being a singaporean and a citizen of another country does not seem to be substantial.

Most important of all, your posts give me the understanding that you have no regrets absolutely in coming to Australia in search of a more meaningful life.

.....

Neddy, getting up and shifting citizenship is one of the most difficult thing a person can do, i feel. It means starting all over again, calling a new place home.

It takes courage.

Your posts give one a sense of confidence that here is one person who made it.

.....

Thank you very much.

Click to expand...

You are most welcomed. Hopefully others have something to say as well.

kakowi said:

There appeared to be many here who had actually taken the step to emigrate to their desired land.

Which means that they had moved from a first-class singaporean citizen to a second-class citizen of the desired country.

As a first-class singaporean, i can only think of these advantages:

(1) amongst singaporeans, so less discrimination
(2) higher subsidy for education although the actual amount is marginal compared with asian students
(3) subsidized C-class wards

​

As a second-class citizen of another country, these may be the disadvantages:

(i) racist treatment at the hands of the ang-mos
(ii) cannot move into managerial jobs
(iii) no gun control; no death penalty; soft drugs tolerance (but do these lead to a sense of unease?)

​

Can those who had actually made the move please comment if being a second-class citizen there better than a first-class citizen here?

Thank you.

Click to expand...

Being a local born Singaporean does not necessarily mean being = 1st class citizen. The PAP is well known for bending over backwards to entice foreign talents to take up PRship or citizenship and there are few takers. If I am not wrong the pecking order in S'pore is; the ELITE connected to the MIW, Foreign Talent (professionals, investors etc) all come first BEFORE the local LESSER MORTALS!

For the lesser mortals, there are subclasses; Chinese before Indians and Malays. There is therefore BOTH; RACISM and DISCRIMINATION in Singapore even amongst the PINK IC holders.

The so called 'subsidy' for education, health and housing in S'pore is pure BS! You will be enlightened on the meaning of what is real subsidy when you have come to a Western Country.

In NZ there is a universal Pension till death for ALL senior citizens, free travel (Offpeak) for pensioners, free hospitalisation (maternity cases included), student allowances; interest free student loans etc. Example of a 'subsidy' myth; Medical Studies (S'pore) annual fee ($27,000pa?), NZ (Otago Uni) Medical Studies( $11,000 pa) annual fee.

CANNOT get managerial positions in an ANGMOH country is another MYTH. There may be instances of racism or racial preferences by some blacksheep but to generalise and say CANNOT get managerial positions is what LKY would want S'poreans to believe. It may be tough but not impossible. In NZ we have Ethnic Chinese Professors in Universities, Medical Consultants, Mayors, Govt Minister (Pansy Wong).

S'poreans tend to see Gun laws, no death penalties, drugs etc in Western countries as negative factors. Does gun control, death penalties, drug control laws in S'pore really reduce the level of violent deaths, deter murders or drug taking any better? One has to analyse deeper the number of prisoners, expenditure on Police and number of police deployed per capita population et all before passing judgment.

kakowi said:

Which means that they had moved from a first-class singaporean citizen to a second-class citizen of the desired country.

Click to expand...

First Class Singaporean citizen??? Are you Rip Van Winkle?

kakowi said:

There appeared to be many here who had actually taken the step to emigrate to their desired land.

Which means that they had moved from a first-class singaporean citizen to a second-class citizen of the desired country.

As a first-class singaporean, i can only think of these advantages:

(1) amongst singaporeans, so less discrimination
(2) higher subsidy for education although the actual amount is marginal compared with asian students
(3) subsidized C-class wards

​

As a second-class citizen of another country, these may be the disadvantages:

(i) racist treatment at the hands of the ang-mos
(ii) cannot move into managerial jobs
(iii) no gun control; no death penalty; soft drugs tolerance (but do these lead to a sense of unease?)

​

Can those who had actually made the move please comment if being a second-class citizen there better than a first-class citizen here?

Thank you.

Click to expand...

All these you are saying are those that the PAP garbagement has been bullshitting to all Sinkees. Though they had succeeded in the past, there is an increasing number who have seen through their bullshits and are packing up and leaving Singapore, increasingly to Australia. It is for this very reason that the papayas have so desperately hired some loser cockroaches to post rubbish in the hope to deter Sinkees but their lies and bullshits are so obvious and so ridiculous that with the exception of a handful, most are able to see through their lies and have started looking at them like clowns.

I had been hearing from a lot of people that the PAP had quite a bit of influence in how singaporeans think, even instrumental in the downfall of the WP and SDP when they were in the hands of potent leaders JBJ and CST.

Be that as it may, i want to leave it aside for the moment.

Thus for this thread, i rather focus on the differential between being a citizen in singapore versus that of a newly-minted citizen in another country.

I prefer experiences and first-hand accounts of life abroad compared to arguments and rhetoric. Arguments and rhetoric do no good to anyone. All they do is to cause a person to open his mouth and shut his eyes.

Do share about why gun control laws, no death penalty, soft drugs tolerance and racism do not affect the quality of life you have abroad.

There must be wonderful points about why the new country is so good and why life is so affirming in that country.

And thanks kiwibird7 for your points on these.

Leongsam,

i am not aware that the terms 'first-class' and 'second-class' are archaic; be that as it may, you get the idea i hope - the substance is the comparison between the benefits already accrued to a native citizen versus one who need to start life abroad.

i got the term from http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?t=16286 and i am still hoping that MentisMortis will drop by and develop on the interesting aside that was brought up

kakowi said:

I had been hearing from a lot of people that the PAP had quite a bit of influence in how singaporeans think, even instrumental in the downfall of the WP and SDP when they were in the hands of potent leaders JBJ and CST.

Be that as it may, i want to leave it aside for the moment.

Thus for this thread, i rather focus on the differential between being a citizen in singapore versus that of a newly-minted citizen in another country.

I prefer experiences and first-hand accounts of life abroad compared to arguments and rhetoric. Arguments and rhetoric do no good to anyone. All they do is to cause a person to open his mouth and shut his eyes.

Do share about why gun control laws, no death penalty, soft drugs tolerance and racism do not affect the quality of life you have abroad.

There must be wonderful points about why the new country is so good and why life is so affirming in that country.

And thanks kiwibird7 for your points on these.

Leongsam,

i am not aware that the terms 'first-class' and 'second-class' are archaic; be that as it may, you get the idea i hope - the substance is the comparison between the benefits already accrued to a native citizen versus one who need to start life abroad.

i got the term from http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?t=16286 and i am still hoping that MentisMortis will drop by and develop on the interesting aside that was brought up

Click to expand...

I think first-class and second-class citizenship is archaic in Australia. It is only used by disgrunted people who wants to divide the people. I find the term mainstream community and ethnic communities used more popular.

First of all, we need to realised that the laws in Australia is fair to all. All of us have equal rights and just search any Australian government websites and you will understand what I mean.

Then we have the dominant community which is sterotyped as White. But if you look at the different cities, what constitute the dominant communty is different. In some cities, you include the 'seppo', 'pom', 'kraut', 'wog' and 'frog'. In the larger cities, 'chinx' are included (eg celebrity chef Kylie Kwong).

Then you have the ethnic communities, usually referred to Vietnamese, Malaysian, Lebanese, etc

What really set us apart are those born overseas and those who are born here. For those who are borned overseas, we usually have mixed identities and it takes a while before we are treated from tourists to locals. We are comfortable that we have a strong link with our motherland. Even my Pom colleague was asked "You have taken 3 weeks leave, are you going BACK to England" (there is no ill-intention)

Even after a drink at the pub, I was asked "Do you help out with your Chinese community for the Chinese New Year" Australia is diverse enough to to accept this type of talk. Why? 1 in 2 Aussies have parents borned overseas.

But sometimes, we are reminded of political correctness. Eg When an Australian won a Victoria Cross medal, the first in a long time, some people will remind us, the Kiwis are also part of our ANZAC spirit, and they had a VC 2 years ago.

Or someone casually said, I think 4th generation Aussies are as far as we have gone, forgotting our Abo community.

There are also some people who will openly display racism. But don't worry, they will be people around who will rebuke these racist people.

Usually, it is the middle-aged women who will discriminate but such incidents are few in my city. Usually, the media will amplify such isolated incidents to sell newspapers. The same media also called Lee Kuan Yew President because its readers do not understand what is Minister Mentor.

But at the end of the day, we do not really care about these 1st class or 2nd class citizenship. I think Singaporeans are more concerned about these division because of the way they treat outsiders. (White, China people or kelings)

I believed if you got tons of $$$ then everywhere you go you are in first class...no money then no class... no different as in SG or OZ.

kakowi said:

There appeared to be many here who had actually taken the step to emigrate to their desired land.

Which means that they had moved from a first-class singaporean citizen to a second-class citizen of the desired country.

As a first-class singaporean, i can only think of these advantages:

(1) amongst singaporeans, so less discrimination
(2) higher subsidy for education although the actual amount is marginal compared with asian students
(3) subsidized C-class wards

​

As a second-class citizen of another country, these may be the disadvantages:

(i) racist treatment at the hands of the ang-mos
(ii) cannot move into managerial jobs
(iii) no gun control; no death penalty; soft drugs tolerance (but do these lead to a sense of unease?)

​

Can those who had actually made the move please comment if being a second-class citizen there better than a first-class citizen here?

Thank you.

Click to expand...

Singaporean = 1st class citizen? Are you living in a dream? First class citizens are only applicable for the PAP and their elite.

Racism in the hands of the ang mors?

I think this is more of a statement to describe Sporeans in Spore being treated 2nd class by their Ang Mor boss.
Here(OZ), My boss is a ang mor but why did he hired me to be a manager and lead a team? 80% of my team members are Ang Mors as well. I think this is more of a concern with the cultural fit then race. In a couple of weeks time I already proved I can lead better then my predecessor who is a Ang Mor as well.

Cannot move into managerial jobs?

In the first place, can you be one (especially MNC) in Singapore? It its a fact in a western country, we (Asians) are always minority but as long you prove you can blend in the culture and your capability, there is no reason why you can't.

no gun control; no death penalty; soft drugs tolerance (but do these lead to a sense of unease?

You watched too much hollywood movies I suppose. Its a common sense you don't hang around alone in the middle of the night at a dark street or high crime area, especially in a big city/country. No death penalty - so? It doesn't bother anyone. Spore can set whatever rules with dealth penatly but it doesn't mean its the right way to do. In the western world, they emphasis democracy and giving human being a chance.

Better or worse, its entirely up to individual. There's no right or wrong, black or white, win or lose. Though I have no intention to give up my Sg citizenship, but I might do it one day. Spore will always remain in my heart cos this is where I grew up, but in the 2nd phase of my life, I might no longer love this place and pull the plug, who knows what will happen tommorrow these days?

kakowi said:

Do share about why gun control laws, no death penalty, soft drugs tolerance and racism do not affect the quality of life you have abroad.

Click to expand...

Another point to add is this.

1. I will not be arrested for wearing kangaroo T-shirt to spite the judges in Australia.
2. If I get arrested, I will defend myself by wearing a placard around the city to show the people about this uncontitutional charge.
3. I will countersue the judge, and activate Amnesty Australia.
4. I will put up a website drawing cartoon making fun of the judges.
5. I am innocent until proven guilty. In Singapore, it is the opposite.

In Singapore, anything I do, the LAW will slap me further.

You think I am scare to live in Singapore or Australia. You tell me.

Even take one day sick leave also must see doctor and get MC.
Over here, my boss will say, "Good Stuff , why not take a day off tomorrow."

Over here, if you take leave, you will be paid 15% more because we need more allowance when we are on leave.

kakowi said:

There appeared to be many here who had actually taken the step to emigrate to their desired land.
Which means that they had moved from a first-class singaporean citizen to a second-class citizen of the desired country.
As a first-class singaporean, i can only think of these advantages:

(1) amongst singaporeans, so less discrimination
(2) higher subsidy for education although the actual amount is marginal compared with asian students
(3) subsidized C-class wards
​

As a second-class citizen of another country, these may be the disadvantages:

(i) racist treatment at the hands of the ang-mos
(ii) cannot move into managerial jobs
(iii) no gun control; no death penalty; soft drugs tolerance (but do these lead to a sense of unease?)
​

Can those who had actually made the move please comment if being a second-class citizen there better than a first-class citizen here?
Thank you.

Click to expand...

There are many better places of living in so-called 3rd world countries than red dot... in china.. there are almost limitless cities to choose from.. the elite ones like shanghai or beijing to small cowboy towns... haha

This thread is very juicy and informatives.

Keep it up!!

Hope I made my point



Mr Leong, borrow your private jet.

kakowi said:

Do share about why gun control laws, no death penalty, soft drugs tolerance and racism do not affect the quality of life you have abroad.

There must be wonderful points about why the new country is so good and why life is so affirming in that country.

Click to expand...

Tell me how the lack of freedom, the fear of authority, the strict regime that cuts down people's lifestyle, the lack of participation in daily decision-making, the pettiness of the people affect the quality of life in Singapore.

I am not arguing with you. It is just that as an Aussie, if I have to live abroad in Singapore, I am afraid that these will affect the quality of my life too.The main thing to do is what Singaporeans have taken for granted. Just be vigilent and have common sense about personal safety. The only time I have been robbed is in Suntec City in Singapore. (touchwood)

I get cheated when buying things in Singapore, but in Australia, if the product is not what it stated, I will ask for a refund.

If you think that personal safety is affected by guns, do you think the robber is not scared that you also carry gun

Soft drugs is not the perfect solution, but it allows the government to control the drug addicts better. Drug addicts do not need to rob people to pay for the quick fix. Just stop by a government facility, register yourself, and you will get your fix with substitute drugs and receive other treatment programs. This is part of public safety. We do not like see drug addicts endanger themselves and other innocent people.

Even tiny Singapore cannot stop drug trafficking, do you think a big country like Australia can. I even got cannibus bush in my garden once. But it grows in this climate.

W realised that we cannot drive people to desperation.

neddy said:

I actually felt more rewarding as an Aussie.

1. People give me credit for my opinions and views at work

2. As a manager, I do have to deal with certain people who dislike being managed by Asian managers. For some, it is because they have not encountered an Asian manager. I have to be firm and not use my position (legitimate power) as much. It is more my capabilities that finally win them over. When they realise that i am fair and don't play the blame game - I get invited to Friday drinks with the guys or my female colleagues show me their baby photos etc. For others, they just have to leave - some of these people are just losers in lives anyway.

3. I find it easier to work with Asians in Australia. But compared to angmo (except South Africans, French and Zimbabweans), I enjoy working with them rather than a number of Singaporeans I have encountered. Perhaps we have more interaction, communications and more tolerant. I cannot stand people who demand explanation for minor things like not attending meetings or even having to submit sick leave for 1 day absence from work.
Singaporeans are too efficient at the expense of enjoying the work.

4. Problem with drugs. This is an big issue in the western world. Perhaps in Australia, they take a more educated view. It is not simply stereotyping that all drug addicts are bad, but we do take into account why they got into drugs in the first place. We do not sentence them in our mind that they are ALL bad people. You seen drug addicts given up their seats for old ladies.

5. I personally find doctors and nurses here more caring. Since I have paid for medicare levy and joined a private health fund, I do expect a certain level of service. No public hospital can turn away me if I need treatment, otherwise, it will be in tomorrow's news and the health dept will have to explain. So, far visits to GP, pathology, ultrasound, etc are free (bulk-billed - the clinic bill the govt and out of pocket expenses met by the private health fund) Sound complex, but the system is not perfect.

6. Students take government loan to study which they repay when they start working. Basically, university work on cost recovery model for locals, and profit-motivated for international students.

Click to expand...

Why you still hang around here ah??? Don't you think joining fellow aussies in their various forums is more productive for you???

UpYoz_olo said:

Why you still hang around here ah??? Don't you think joining fellow aussies in their various forums is more productive for you???

Click to expand...

I do not want to lose touch of where I come from. But I am really losing touch of how it feels like to be Singaporean.

You must remember, people do ask me about Singapore. But they sometimes got shocked at how crowded Singapore is - this and other feedback from them give me an unique insight which people with dual identities like me have an advantage over.

Anyway, with Aussies, we do not always use forums or worry about productivity. Hanging out with the various groups of fellow Aussies also tell me the diversity and colorful tapestry of people around me.

Hope this answer your question.

Thanks everyone for all your inputs.

I am glad that NissanVIP finds it valuable. I do too.

I was not aware that the terms 'first-class citizen' and 'second-class citizen' was used to do a class divide. That was not my intention. Sorry.

IWC2006, is it correct to conclude from your post that you are a singaporean who has yet to do the act of migration? If so, have you stayed abroad for a while so that your points are from your practical perspective?